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Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by c123provider, Nov 10, 2009.
Please see the attached info from Remington on why you want an 870 P versus the Express.
My 870 Express has a real steel trigger guard, not compressed metal like the 870P.
It was one of the first 870 Express models made in 1987. The only difference between it and a good old fashioned 870 Wingmaster is the cheaper finish.
Anyone know when Remington changed to the plastic trigger guard, integrated lock, and detents to prevent the magazine extension?
There is only one 870 and they only differ by finish and furniture. Every time this topic comes up somone down loads this marketing mess from Remington. No 870 is built with the ISS safety any longer. Every 870 that comes with an tube extension has the same mag tube mounted in the receiver as the P but it is a matte finish not parkerized like the P. The only difference in your 870 Express HD and the P is the finish, furniture and about $30 in small parts. In fact, go to the 870 retail parts list on www.remington.com and you could build an 870P 4+1 with a synthetic stock for $46 less then you could build an Express 4+1 with the same stock Not that anyone would as they would cost to much). How, to start the 18.5" Parkerized police barrel with bead sight sells for $96 and the 18.5" matter finish Express barrel with bead sight cost $131. The bolts are identical but the Express has the $5 MIM extractor and the P has the $13 solid steel extractor yet both cost the exact same, $93.10. How the heck does that comput. The polymer trigger plate assembly for the Express is $80 and the metal P assembly is $86.90, why, because there are two different springs in the P. I have the polymer in all my 870. It is more durable, stays cleaner inside and if I ding or scratch it I don't have to worry about refinishing it like the metal ones that are painted. I know some other parts buy will keep that to my self. When you buy a new P you are getting a fantasic weapon but you are paying for a word engraved on the reciever and about $30 in parts. Think your P receiver is different? It is not. It is the same receiver as on the Express and Wingmaster. Go to the parts list and you will see the Police receiver cost $239.05, the Express receiver cost $239.05 and the Wingmaster receiver cost $239.05...why do those receivers all cost the same. Because they are the exact same receivers. If you own any 870 then your weapon is as good as the next guys no matter what is engraved on the receiver.
aippi: I love your shotgun posts. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
$30 in small parts and a $150 refinish + $100/150 for decent wood (if you care about that part) are the primary differences. The Wingmaster and Police are also better polished and slicker operating guns from the factory. The finish on the Express sucks, plain and simple. It's the cheapest you'll find on any major maker's shotgun, and that certainly includes the H&R Pardner Pump, which is made in China. People are routinely at the shop complaining about rust issues on their Express shotguns. It's not parked...it's poorly blued over a poorly finished exterior. The newest finish is really no better. As a long-time dealer, I've traded through a bunch of them, thinking I'd find one I might want to keep, 870 fan that I am. Never have. If the finish were even close to meeting my expectations, I'd probably reconsider. But so far...no. Of course, I have my pick of Wingmasters and the occasional Police gun, so that probably won't change. All JMO, of course.
Resale is a big difference too.
The 870 Express?.....Ahhh hell I still can blow ***** up with it.
MAkes me appreciate the differences in the Mossberg 500 line a little more...
great post aippi! Unless you have a simila Mossberg story...590 vs 500??? 500 vs Maverick...
OK, based on Aippi's informative post, and Aceman's question on the 500 and 590, how do we objectively determine which manufacturer is accurately presenting their products attributes?
If we base our assumptions on the police models of both Remington and Mossberg, i.e., 870P and 590A1 having the beefed up design parameters to meet LEO requirements, are we making the right choice in paying extra for those model weapons?
Aippi clearly blew up the theory that purchasing the 870P platform is significantly superior to the 870 Express. However in a different thread "Warrior Judge" indicated that the Wilson Combat shotgun built on the 870 Express platform was in his opinion inferior to the Aippi "AIP Tactical" 870P platform in fit and function.
AIP Tactical builds on the 870P platform.
Wilson Combat builds on the 870 Express platform.
NightHawk Tactical builds on the 870 Express platform.
Hans Vang Comp builds on the 870P and 590A1 platforms.
Does Benelli fit into the loop in this discussion as to their military and LEO models?
So how do we objectively cut through all of the Bravo Sierra, and get the best design, using the highest quality parts available, that has exceptional form, fit, and function, that delivers the reliability and durability that we are looking for?
My agency issued me a 870 Wingmaster (clearly NOT new, but decent used condition) with a 14" barrel. Other than the fact that the barrel looks parkerized and the rest of the metal looks blued, the gun functions flawlessly and I have no qualms about carrying it with me on all sorts of assignments.
Excellent info. Just what I was looking for today before I pick up an Express today from an estate sale. It's got Choate furniture, 20" IC with RS and Choate ext. for $250.00
Hopefully I get to shoot it soon.
I did not want to sound like I was beating up the guy that pasted the stuff from Remington. It is just that it is outdated by quite a few years and no longer relevent. Many of the key points that pasted marketing mess has no longer exsist. You would have to be able to see even when it was relevent how weak it was when they have to make a key issue out of the fact that the Police is built in a Special part of the factory, as if assembling the weapon 100 feet to the north east in a one million square foot factory makes the weapon better. Think about that for a minute.
Remingtons problem, to our delight, is that their basic entry HD model is as good as thier top dollar model. They differ by bell and whistles and some minor marketing upgrades. Anyone with a model 700 knows the ADL and CDL and BDL only differed by the stocks, finish and some features. Other then that they are simply model 700"s.
Same with me. My basic model is as good as my Police Elite model. Difference is I don't market, I tell every client the same thing I just posted. I tell people there is a difference in what you need and what you want. Let your wallet decide. I can afford the Police Elite if I wanted one but know damn good and well I can fight and win with AI&P Basic I model. If anyone on this site has talked with me and ordered a weapon, you know I either talked you out of putting a lot of mess or put it on there for you after trying to talk you out of it.
I bring all this up because I don't want to see guys spend money they don't have on the high end weapons because they have been led to belive marketing ploys.
You want a qualtiy fighting shotgun and have the money go to your to your local gun shop and get the 870 Police model. If your wallet is thin the get the 870 HD model 25077. Either will defend your life the exact same.
So which ever model you decide on just make sure it is a Remington
Been using Remington shotguns since I was a kid just learning to hunt, To me they are what all shotguns to be judged by,
The 870 is a testament in longevity and durability, I love my old Winchester 97 pump, buts its no 870, I will not live long enough to see the 870,s or the 1100,s go out of style or practicability,
Mr. McGuire is correct. In fact, I bought a blued 20" IC police barrel for my really beat up Wingmaster from him on Gunbroker (good guy to deal with), plus a police model magazine spring, carrier dog spring and sear spring, and now I have essentially a 870 Wingmaster "Police" SG that shoots to point of aim with #6 shot, Rem RR 00 buck and Rem. RR 1 oz. slugs.
And better yet, it looks like a harmless Wingmaster (doesn't say "Police" on the receiver) if I were to ever have to use it to defend my family. That's important as when the ave. citizen justifiably uses a firearm in self defense these days, they always seem to get sued by the family of the now non-functioning criminal that almost ended their life. Sorry Mr. Plaintiffs Attorney, "I was just using a beat up hunting gun I had, not one of those evil, black, synthetic stocked, high capacity military weapons." Mr. Plaintiffs attorney can't tell a jury that "a regular civilian version wasn't powerful enough for ilmonster, he had to buy a 'Police' SG."
my 870 express has the standard cross bolt safety and steel trigger assembly, but it also had the detents in the tube that were dremeled down so i could add a +2 extension.
Sorry to bring back an old thread - but this looks like the perfect place to ask this question...
Is the 870 Marine Magnum more like the 870 Express or Police in terms of parts?
The Marine is an 870 with a nickle finish on the the receiver, barrel and most internal parts. If you understand there is only one 870 and they differ only by finish and furniture then you understand it is the same as the others. It does have a polymer trigger plate assembly and does not have the carrier dog follower spring of the P. So it is an Express with a nickle finish if that helps you understand the answer to your question better.