close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Welcome to Glock Talk

Why should YOU join our Glock forum?

  • Converse with other Glock Enthusiasts
  • Learn about the latest hunting products
  • Becoming a member is FREE and EASY

If you consider yourself a beginner or an avid shooter, the Glock Talk community is your place to discuss self defense, concealed carry, reloading, target shooting, and all things Glock.

Range Report Colt 6920, DD M4, STG 556, TR24, Les Baer TRP

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by Alaskapopo, Jan 19, 2010.

  1. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    RANGE REPORT 1-18-10
    FIREARMS USED MSAR STG 556, Colt Law Enforcement Carbine (6920), Daniel Defense M4. Les Baer Thunder Range Special.
    Optic tested, Trijicon’s TR24.
    Activities. Sight in followed by department rifle qualification followed by simple CQB drill.
    [​IMG]

    Today Alaskacop and I went to the range. I had a new TR24 to sight in and test out. I wanted him to do my CQB drill with one of his pistols and rifles to see which was faster for him at 7 yards. We also shot a rifle qualification.

    During sight in I was very happy with the accuracy I got with my Colt. I was able to get better groups than I was with my previous Aimpoint M4 and 3x magnifier. This is due in part to my stigmatism.

    Once it was sighted in I fired 3 groups at 100 yards. I used some reloads I had made with Sierra 77 grain bullets and TAC powder and Remington Match Primers. The first group I fired was .75, the next one I fired was 1.60. I had Alaskacop fire a group as well and he managed 1.33. That is an average of 1.23 inches. Previously my average with this rifle was 1.96 with the Aimpoint. The TR24 was very bright and clear. I have tested the scope in a variety of lighting conditions from daylight to complete darkness and the reticle is always bright. The only way I was able to make it go black was to be in a dark room and look outside into a bright area. I am very happy with this scope.
     
  2. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Following sighting in the guns, Alaskacop and I shot a department rifle qualification. I managed 147 and he got 139. That is out of 150. 120 is needed to pass.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     


  3. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    He was shooting his MSAR STG556.
    [​IMG]
    Of course I was shooting my Colt
    [​IMG]

    Then I wanted Alaskacop to participate in my ongoing pistol vs. rifle at close range drill. I had him shoot his STG556 at 3 targets at 7 yards. The targets were spaced 3 yards apart. He started with his gun in low ready. I also had him do the drill with his Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special in 45 acp. I shot the drill with my Colt and with my Daniel Defense using my back up optic sight the Primary Arms micro dot gen 2.

    [​IMG]

    Here are the results from that drill.
    1-19-10 Alaskacop and me with new scope on Colt and Daniel Defense

    Me With Colt and TR 24

    1. 2.50
    2. 2.21
    3. 2.43
    4. 2.21
    5. 2.41
    6. 2.57
    7. 2.65
    8. 2.53
    9. 2.57
    10. 2.61
    Average 2.46
    Hits 59 A 1 C

    Me with Daniel Defense

    1. 2.82
    2. 2.86
    3. 2.82
    4. 2.91
    5. 2.76
    Average 2.83
    Hits 29 A 1 C

    Alaskacop556

    MSAR (STG556 Aug clone)

    Time
    1. 3.42
    2. 3.00
    3. 2.68
    4. 2.83
    5. 3.06
    6. 3.11
    7. 2.80
    8. 3.18
    9. 3.08
    10. 3.15
    Average 3.03

    Hits 59 A 1 C

    Alaskacop556 Pistol (Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special in 45 acp)

    Time
    1. 4.74
    2. 4.54
    3. 4.33
    4. 3.81
    5. 3.79
    Average 4.24

    Hits 16A 14C


    Here are the videos.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1gZctTTZIE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEpQ2BqUZVk


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZYJgcFKvec

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwtbL0tTirg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKi6ojpqyI0
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2010
  4. Tomac

    Tomac

    558
    0
    Aug 12, 2001
    Caldwell, Idaho
    *Very* nice report, thanks! Do you find a magnified optic at 1x to be slower at CQB ranges than a typical RDS?
    Tomac
     
  5. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    No I have not. In fact I have found it to be about equal. When comparing my TR24, Swarovski Z6i and my various RDS sights during this 7 yard drill.
    Pat
     
  6. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    These are the stats I have compiled so far.

    5.56 AR's

    Colt 6920 Aimpoint (Flash hider no comp)

    TIME
    1. 2.87
    2. 3.08
    3. 2.79
    4. 2.75
    5. 2.87
    Average 2.87

    HITS

    T1 8A 2C
    T2 9A 1C
    T3 8A 2C

    Total hits 25A 5C

    GUN Noveske N4 carbine Aimpoint T1 used.

    TIME

    1. 2.69
    2. 3.07
    3. 2.58
    4. 2.58
    5. 2.29 (one shot not fired so I am not averaging it in for the time)

    Average time for first 4 strings 2.73 seconds.

    HITS

    T1 8 Alpha 2 Charlie
    T2 9 Alpha 1 Charlie
    T3 4 Alpha 5 Charlie (one shot was not fired)

    TOTAL HITS: 21 A 8C (one round not fired)

    N4 just ACOG (TA33 fixed 3 power)

    TIME

    1. 2.64
    2. 2.67
    3. 2.80
    4. 2.59
    5. 2.63

    Average time 2.67

    HITS

    T1 8A 2C
    T2 7A 3C
    T3 8A 2C

    Total hits : 23 A 7C



    Gun Larue Stealth Rifle Swarovski Z6i set at 1x

    TIME

    1. 2.52
    2. 2.59
    3. 2.50
    4. 2.56
    5. 2.69

    Average Time 2.57

    HITS

    T1 9A 1C
    T2 10A
    T3 8A 2C

    TOTAL Hits: 27 A 3 C

    Gun Saber Defense AR15 A2 (IRONS)

    1. 2,57
    2. 2.44
    3. 2.49
    4. 2.62
    5. 2.66

    Average time 2,56

    HITS

    T1 9A 1C
    T2 9A 1D
    T3 7A 3C

    TOTAL hits: 25 A 4 C 1D

    .308's

    Gun AR10 carbine Aimpoint M4 2moa dot no muzzle brake just a huge flash hider.

    1. 3.17
    2. 2.88
    3. 2.84
    4. 2.72
    5. 2.83
    Average time 2.89

    HITS

    T1 4 A 2C 3D 1M
    T2 9A 1C
    T3 8A 2C

    Total hits: 21 A 5 C 3D 1 M (miss)

    (Did so bad the first day I tried the AR10 again. I had to slow down to get my hits)

    AR10 12-1-09

    Time

    1. 3.95
    2. 4.04
    3. 3.42
    4. 3.22
    5. 3.33
    6. 3.03

    Average: 3.50

    Hits
    T1 10 A 2 C
    T2 11 A 1 C
    T3 8 A 4C

    Total 29A 7 C


    AK47's

    Gun Saiga AK47 Reddot (Aimpoint ML2)

    1. 2.91
    2. 3.28
    3. 2.71
    4. 2.71
    5. 2.67

    Average time 2.86

    HITS

    T1 9A 1C
    T2 10A
    T3 9A 1C

    Total hits: 28 A 2C


    MAK 90 Krebs (Apature rear sight)

    TIME:

    1. 2.88
    2. 2.87
    3. 2.89
    4. 2.08
    5. 3.05
    Average time 2.75

    HITS

    T1 9A 1C
    T2 10A
    T3 7A 3C

    TOTAL hits 26A 4C



    PISTOLS

    GUN STI Edge in 40sw. My limited gun for USPSA. Caliber 40sw.


    TIME
    1. 2.88
    2. 3.01
    3. 3.10
    4. 3.10
    5. 2.70

    Average time for all 5 strings is 2.95

    HITS

    T1 6 A 3C 1B
    T2 7 A 2C 1D
    T3 9A 1C

    TOTAL 22 A’s 7 B&C’s 1 D hit

    Glock 17

    1. 3.38
    2. 3.13
    3. 3.37
    4. 3.46
    5. 3.15
    Average 3.30

    HITS

    T1 9A 1C
    T2 5A 3C 2D
    T3 7A 1C 1D 1 Miss

    Total 21A 5C 3D 1Miss


    CONCLUSION.

    I have come to some conclusions. For me at least the rifle is always faster and more accurate than a pistol except in the case of the AR10. I had to slow down to control the recoil with it. But at the .223 and 7.62x39 level of recoil the rifles were better. I affirmed that a muzzle brake does work. My Colt times with the Vortex were worse than all my other 5.56 guns and they all wear muzzle brakes. Even my AK times were better and they have muzzle brakes. I learned that Irons at 7 yards are faster or at least as fast as any of my optics. A red dot sight helps in low light but its not faster in normal conditions. I still recommend optics but I don't believe the hype that they always make you faster. It depends on the range I believe. I had similar results in an experiment I did a few years back testing irons and various optics on one rifle. The irons were a tad faster at 15 yards. They were slower for me at 25, 50 and 100. But for close quarters work I believe Irons give up nothing in the way of speed in normal lighting conditions. Kurt was right about Irons being fast up close. There I said it. Like most type A personalities I hate admitting when I am wrong.

    VIDEOS of yours truly.
    MAK 90
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSNdlDMpiM

    Saiga AK
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j3i_n7LuP0 (Shooting)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhFbYB55mis (targets)


    AR10 first day when I was faster but sucked on hits.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMyOusJghBw

    AR10 on the second day (when I slowed down a bit)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK3b6Fif-xE

    Colt 6920 Aimpoint

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlJVVZDx68

    Noveske (using Aimpoint T1 in Larue off set mount)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7DKYdU6Q8

    Noveske (using ACOG)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksh8WqmXNIY

    Larue Stealth with Swarovski
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAJAC1-Ufs

    Saber Defense A2 (Irons)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDBqlNeoJG8 Shooting
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=721rZXLU1dg Targets

    STI EDGE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmNrsFoq2c8


    12-8-09 Range Report Guns used Noveske N4 with Ta 33 ACOG, T1 Aimpoint and Troy sights. Also a DPMS M4, Glock 17, Spikes 22 lr AR and Browning Buckmark.

    Shooter S13 (one of my patrol officers) Gun DPMS M4 Target APD DOC qualification target.

    Targets were placed 7 yards from the shooter each target was set 3 yards apart.

    Time

    1. 3.56
    2. 3.39
    3. 3.09
    4. 2.93
    5. 2.98
    Average time 3.19

    Hits

    27 A 3C


    Shooter S13 Gun Glock 17

    Time

    1. 4.41
    2. 4.56
    3. 4.56
    4. 4.50
    5. 4.00
    Average time 4.41

    Hits

    20 A 8 C 2 D

    Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with Irons

    Time

    1. 3.89
    2. 3.41
    3. 3.39
    4. 3.51
    5. 3.39

    Average time 3.52

    Hits

    30 A

    Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with Aimpoint T1

    Time

    1. 3.50
    2. 3.12
    3. 2.93
    4. 3.07
    5. 2.91
    Average Time 3.11

    Hits 29 A 1 Delta

    Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with TA 33 ACOG

    Time
    1. 4.84
    2. 4.32
    3. 4.00
    4. 3.53
    5. 3.32
    Average Time 4.00

    Hits 29 A 1 C

    Shooter S13 Gun Spikes 22LR M4 with Aimpoint.

    Time

    1. 3.73
    2. 3.27
    3. 2.89
    4. 2.70
    5. 2.93
    Average time 3.10

    Hits 29 A 1 C

    Shooter S13 Gun Browning Buck Mark Pistol with Tasco Pro Point Red Dot sight.

    Time

    1. 4.02
    2. 3.85
    3. 4.12
    4. 4.52
    5. 3.52
    Average time 4.00

    Hits 27 A 3 C


    Shooter Me Gun Spikes 22 M4

    Time
    1. 2.55
    2. 2.69
    3. 2.69
    4. 2.55
    5. 2.85
    Average Time 2.66

    Hits 29 A 1 C

    Shooter Me Gun Browning Buck Mark 22 pistol with Red Dot sight

    Time

    1. 3.16
    2. 3.48
    3. 3.36
    4. 3.47
    5. 3.15
    Average time 3.32

    Hits 28 A 2 C


    Shooter Me gun Noveske Troy Back Up Irons

    Time
    1. 3.09
    2. 2.63
    3. 2.67
    4. 2.74
    5. 2.61
    Average Time 2.75
    Hits 29 A 1 C

    Shooter Me Gun Noveske Optic Aimpoint T1 Red dot

    Time
    1. 2.79
    2. 2.85
    3. 2.88
    4. 3.01
    5. 2.43
    Average Time 2.79
    Hits 25 A 5 C

    Shooter Me Gun Noveske Optic TA33 ACOG

    Time
    1. 3.43
    2. 2.61
    3. 2.64
    4. 2.77
    5. 3.06
    Average Time 2.90
    HITS 29 A 1 Delta

    Summary

    Pistol Scores

    Me 22 Pistol with Red dot
    Time 3.32
    Hits 28A 2 C


    Rifle Scores

    Spikes 22 LR
    Time 2.66
    Hits 29A 1C

    Noveske Irons
    Time 2.75
    Hits 29A 1 C

    Noveske Red Dot
    Time 2.79
    Hits 25 A 5 C

    Noveske ACOG
    Time 2.90
    Hits 29A 1 D

    SHOOTER S13

    Pistol

    Glock 17
    Time 4.41
    Hits 20A 8C 2D

    Browning 22 Pistol with Red Dot
    Time 4.00
    Hits 27A 3C

    Rifles

    DPMS Duty gun Iron Sights
    Time 3.19
    Hits 27A 3C

    Noveske Irons
    Time 3.52
    Hits 30A

    Noveske Aimpoint
    Time 3.11
    Hits 29A 1D

    Noveske ACOG
    Time 4.00
    Hits 29A 1C

    Spikes 22lr AR15 with Red dot
    Time 3.10
    Hits 29A 1C


    S13 has had a lot more handgun training than he has had training with his patrol rifle. Yet he did much better in both time and accuracy with his patrol rifle.


    12-22-09 More tests.

    Stag AR15 carbine. Irons

    1. 2.80
    2. 2.89
    3. 2.54
    4. 2.72
    5. 2.59
    Average 2.70

    Hits 30 A.

    Wilson 45

    1. 3.53
    2. 3.55
    3. 3.51
    4. 3.50
    5. 3.45
    6. 3.53
    Average 3.51

    Hits 36 A

    STI 9mm

    1. 3.45
    2. 3.42
    3. 3.02
    4. 4.15
    5. 3.52
    Average 3.51

    Hits 25 A 5 C

    Glock 17

    1. 3.52
    2. 3.43
    3. 3.19
    4. 3.54
    5. 3.09
    Average 3.35

    Hits 26 A 3C 1 D

    Sig 228

    1. 3.45
    2. 3.46
    3. 3.81
    4. 3.64
    5. 4.17
    Average 3.70

    Hits 29 A 1C

    Smith 19 357 mag full house loads.

    1. 4.06
    2. 4.54
    3. 4.12
    4. 3.99
    5. 4.41
    Average 4.22

    Smith 25 converted to 45 ACP

    1. 3.92
    2. 3.94
    3. 4.52
    4. 4.43
    5. 4.30
    Average 4.22

    Hits 26A 3C 1Miss



    SEAN

    Stag AR
    1. 7.84
    2. 9.02
    3. 6.95
    4. 5.66
    5. 5.51
    6. 6.98
    7. 5.90
    8. 5.64
    9. 5.24
    10. 5.97
    Average 6.47

    Hits 56A 4C

    SEAN Ruger SR9

    1. 7.64
    2. 9.64
    3. 10.19
    4. 8.91
    5. 9.36
    6. 7.11
    7. 7.72
    8. 8.86
    9. 8.82
    10. 9.94
    Average 8.82

    HITS 28A 24 C 7D 1 Miss

    Walther P 22

    1. 6.71
    2. 7.82
    3. 7.57
    4. 6.95
    5. 6.92
    6. 9.07
    7. 7.47
    8. 7.72
    9. 5.97
    10. 6.78
    Average 7.30

    Hits 56A 4C

    SEAN Glock 17

    1. 6.78
    2. 8.19
    3. 7.16
    4. 7.75
    5. 7.51
    Average 7.48

    Hits 28A 2C

    12-26-09

    Scott. Glock 34

    Time
    1. 3.18
    2. 2.88
    3. 2.92
    4. 2.85
    5. 2.94
    Average 2.95

    Hits 27A 3 C

    Scott RRA .223 with Meopta

    1. 3.84
    2. 3.54
    3. 3.60
    4. 3.06
    5. 3.35
    6. 3.73
    7. 3.67
    8. 3.23
    9. 3.16
    10. 3.20
    Average 3.43

    Hits 52A 7 C 1D.

    Pat Noveske N4 Aimpoint T1

    1. 2.44
    2. 2.45
    3. 2.41
    4. 2.42
    5. 2.27
    Average 2.40
    Hits 28A 2C

    Pat Wilson CQB 45 acp

    1. 3.49
    2. 3.36
    3. 3.53
    4. 3.53
    5. 3.42
    Average 3,47

    Hits 27 A 2C 1D

    Pat RRA
    1. 2.93
    2. 3.00
    3. 2.59
    4. 2.52
    5. 2.59
    Average 2.73
    Hits 29A 1C

    1-19-10 Alaskacop and me with new scope on Colt and Daniel Defense

    Me With Colt and TR 24

    1. 2.50
    2. 2.21
    3. 2.43
    4. 2.21
    5. 2.41
    6. 2.57
    7. 2.65
    8. 2.53
    9. 2.57
    10. 2.61
    Average 2.46
    Hits 49 A 1 C

    Me with Daniel Defense

    1. 2.82
    2. 2.86
    3. 2.82
    4. 2.91
    5. 2.76
    Average 2.83
    Hits 29 A 1 C

    Alaskacop556

    MSAR (STG556 Aug clone)

    Time
    1. 3.42
    2. 3.00
    3. 2.68
    4. 2.83
    5. 3.06
    6. 3.11
    7. 2.80
    8. 3.18
    9. 3.08
    10. 3.15
    Average 3.03

    Hits 59 A 1 C

    Alaskacop556 Pistol (Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special in 45 acp)

    Time
    1. 4.74
    2. 4.54
    3. 4.33
    4. 3.81
    5. 3.79
    Average 4.24

    Hits 16A 14C
     
  7. Tomac

    Tomac

    558
    0
    Aug 12, 2001
    Caldwell, Idaho
    Nice, thx! Any problems shooting from unconventional positions w/sloppy cheekweld?
    Tomac
     
  8. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    I have not trained that hard with it yet. Yes I bet it will be more difficult than using a red dot in those positions. But it does have forgiving eye relief on 1x. With everything there is trade offs. For close range a Red dot sight is great. But they suck as the range extends. They also suck for target identification. They also suck for those of us with astigmatism.
    Pat
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
  9. Jitterbug

    Jitterbug

    870
    5
    Aug 27, 2002
    Alaska

    Thanks for the time, money and effort, being an AR newbie, I really appreciate the info!
     
  10. Kentak

    Kentak

    3,686
    220
    Jan 8, 2006
    Central Ohio
    What the hell's wrong with you? Never, ever pose an AR with laundry products.

    :shame:

    Just kidding. Thanks for the info.
     
  11. snappydad

    snappydad

    59
    0
    Feb 2, 2009
    Good post Pat. Looks chilly!! Sorry if I missed it but does your TR24 have the triangle or German reticle?
     
  12. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    6,545
    2
    Feb 6, 2000
    Alaska
    Red Triangle