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Q re: 12g Taser rounds

Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by Willard, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. Willard

    Willard Who, me?

    700
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    Jan 2, 2000
    Hi all,

    This is a multi-part question, for follow me...

    I'm sure that most of you have seen the cool Taser rounds that are fired from a 12 gauge SG. They look like a GREAT less-lethal round for HD. I have considered using less-lethal ammo for the first shot in my HD 870.

    So, the questions are:

    1) Does anyone else use a less-lethal 1st round? If not, why not? If so, what type do you use?

    2) Are there reliability issues with less-lethal rounds?

    3) _why_ are the Taser rounds for LE only? I don't understand why - what is the thought process behind making a less-lethal round LE only?

    Thanks!
     
  2. NWanner

    NWanner

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    Jul 24, 2007
    A firearm can be considered a deadly weapon. Therefore if you have to deploy a firearm during a situation, you should have justifiable need to use deadly force. If you're going to have to justifiably use deadly force you might as well use lethal rounds.

    Civillians are not LE and don't have the escalation of force rules that police do. Therefore there isn't a need for less-lethal rounds. If you want a less-lethan option then carry a can of OC for those pesky dogs.

    Also, less-lethal rounds do not always work as they are intended to. This could either lead to killing a BG when you don't have justification for deadly force, or having the BG be unfazed by the round and kill you instead.
     

    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010

  3. aippi

    aippi

    1,726
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    Jun 12, 2009
    My first round in my HD shotgun is Sellier & Bellot rubber OO buck. Here is why?

    1. I am not perfect and can make a mistake. If I fire when I should not have it will most likely be a one shot mistake and everyone will live it. It almost happened three years ago.

    2. If I am jumped and my weapon taken, I know what that round is and if I can take the hit and the pain, I have a chance to live.

    3. It works and may be the only round I need to fire

    4. If I use it then have to use deadly force, it would be very difficult for some lawyer the dirt bags family hire to paint me as a killer to a jury when I first used less then lethal in an attempt to defend my home.

    5. No worry about what is beyond the threat as it will not carry far and not go through walls.

    6. If you have children think about this. A child would have a problem racking a round into a pump shotgun. If somehow the child did, it would be a one shot issue as it would be unlikely the child would discharge the weapon again. If the first round in your tube is Less then lethal, a life may be saved.

    Note: During my career I was a Certifed Def-Tech Instructor and I certified many officers on using Specialty Impact munitions from both the 12 ga shotgun and the 37MM launcher. I took a hit from this stuff in Instructor school and I can testifiy to the effectiveness of it. Man can I testify!!! I also have the pictures of the deep brusing it left so should I have ever been called in to court because an officer I trained deployed it, I would have those pictures.

    I know nother about any 12ga taser round so that must be after my day.
     
  4. Willard

    Willard Who, me?

    700
    23
    Jan 2, 2000
    NWanner - I understand your point. First, I wouldn't fire a less-lethal round unless deadly force was justified.

    JD - Your explanation parallels my thinking. In the event of a accidental discharge, a LL round is much less damaging. Plus, all the other thoughts you mentioned. I will probably employ the rubber 00 Buck.

    But, _why_ is the Taser round "LE only"? Is this something specific to the Taser?
     
  5. bikerdog

    bikerdog

    1,722
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    Feb 11, 2009
    I might be wrong but I think it's still in testing with only a few LE agencies. Also it will not shoot out of a normal 12 GA only ones with modified bolts.
     
  6. NWanner

    NWanner

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    Jul 24, 2007
    If you should not be firing you should not have a shotgun pointed at someone.

    Most less-lethal rounds are VERY lethal at <10yds

    Or it doesn't work and you get yourself killed by a BG with a gun/knife/etc. You may only get one round to fire before you are overtaken. Me personally I'd rather have that one round be one that can save my ass.

    Deadly force is deadly force. If you manage to not kill them but permently disable them you have a better chance of losing in civil court than if they're dead. You shoot someone when you didn't have justification you'll still be charged with attempted murder/use of a deadly weapon/etc. as if it were a lethal round.

    You know for a fact that all less-lethal rounds won't penetrate walls? If it won't penetrate a wall what makes you think it can take out a BG wearing heavy clothing? Same arguement applies to using bird shot for HD.

    You have now just crossed into the realm of ridiculousness...

    Once again, police have escalation of force rules that do not apply to civillians. The only time a civillian can deploy a firearm (generally, varies with state law) is when in fear of immenent bodily harm and deadly force is needed to protect themselves or others. LE use less-lethal rounds as tools when they don't feel that deadly force is neccessary, but they also have buddies next to them with lethal rounds incase they're needed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  7. NWanner

    NWanner

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    If deadly force is justified then use deadly force!! You reasoning for using less-lethal rounds in case of an accident by itself breeds complacentcy. Accidents with firearms are 100% preventable barring any mechanical defects, which are extremely rare.

    ETA: There is also more than one thing to be said about KISS. Stick to OO Buck or Slugs and use your shotgun only if deadly force is justified. In a civil court they are never going to say, "well he could have used less-lethal rounds like the police do.", because you simply refute you are not LE. What they could do, though, is to bring the less lethal rounds into the arguement and throw everything and anything against the wall until something sticks. All of a sudden your good intentions are spun around and used against you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  8. GAFinch

    GAFinch

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    Georgia
    You could go old school with some rock salt.
     
  9. CAcop

    CAcop

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    California
    LL munitons are a waste of time for anything other than a team of people using it to arrest a particular person when the are resistive but not presenting a deadly force threat. There is no need for LL in a non on duty law enforcement situation. I have access to our old LL shotgun rounds. I could use them at home. There is no way in hell I am going to use them on my own time. 1) I do not have the proper training for them. 2) I have not qualified to use them. 3) I do not have a team to properly use them with me on my own time. 4) If someone needs to be shot in my home they will be shot because they pose an immediate threat to my safety of the safety of others.
     
  10. aippi

    aippi

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    Jun 12, 2009
    Wanner I suspect by your response you have never been in a sitution that called for you to make a fast decision to pull a trigger. If you have not then until you have, you will simply not understand my posting. The main reason that munition is there is incase I make a mistake. Deciding to pull that trigger is the most stressful thing you will ever have to do. I have been there several times and I hope that for the years I have remaining on this old earth, that I am never there again, however, I still train for it, I still expect it and I am ready for it. I pray I don't make a mistake.

    What you are missing about this is that these munitions give us another tool. A man confident in his ability with his weapon will take advantage of this. I can fire that Less then Lethal round and follow it up with lead faster then you can even think the thought. I am at no disadvantage using this munition as my first round. I am safer having in my weapon, my family is safer and my nieghbors are safer.

    I will end responding to this post as every time it comes up there are guys have to contest the reasons I give and some even go down the list. It serves nothing to go back and forth. Each man reading this will decide if this is right for him or not. I will not tell him it is right for him, only that it is right for me.
     
  11. CAcop

    CAcop

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    California
    Just so you guys all know LL rounds don't always work like you'd want them to. We have had guys run away after getting popped good. Some just stand there taking the hits. That's why when we deploy them we have someone with lethal coverage nearby. The dude could even shoot at you before you fire your less lethal. Then you have to get through the LL to get to the lethal stuff.

    If you really have a hard time pulling the trigger you might want to rethink the whole gun as protection thing.
     
  12. blaster_54738

    blaster_54738

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    i'm pretty sure they fire out of any standard 12 ga. but one other thing that is stopping a lot of agencies is the price tag which last i heard was around $100 a round.
     
  13. mixflip

    mixflip

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    Mar 4, 2009
    I have seen the bolt for the 12 gauge Taser. It will only shoot the taser round. Now if there are 2 options out there? That I do not know?
     
  14. blaster_54738

    blaster_54738

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    Jul 24, 2007
    WI
    two different rounds, if you look at the brochure on tasers website they offer the xrep-rl for the taser mossberg sg and the xrep-fl for any standard pump action.
     
  15. NWanner

    NWanner

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    If you have "been there" "several times", then you either need to move to a better area, learn to avoid trouble better, or learn when deadly force is actually needed. That's all I'm going to say on that because those comments are borderline rediculous for reasons I shouldn't even have to point out.

    You're not any safer with a less-lethal round than you are with a real round. You are using it as a 'feel good' tactic that is on par with what the anti's routinely do and your 'feel good' measure could end up getting you or someone else hurt. Do what you want though, because you seem stuck with your intentions...
     
  16. NWanner

    NWanner

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    Don't waste your breath bro, these guys obviously won't listen to reason. I'm just glad that someone in LE agrees with what I have said. Too bad even that doesn't seem to be enough to change their minds...
     
  17. DaGroaner

    DaGroaner Anti-Socialist

    Yeah and you could split your earnings with the guy you blinded for the rest of your working life. I'll go with pepper spray.

    Which reminds me, aren't there 12 GA powdered pepper rounds?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  18. GreyEclipse

    GreyEclipse TheGreyEclipse

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    GA&WY
    No, it seems like a disadvantage to me...

    Shoot a BG with rubber and he shoots back with lead...
    Ah, yeah. I'll go with 00Buck or #1 but that's just me.:whistling:
     
  19. Without getting into the underlying issue, comments like this are rather silly. That is like saying "Accidents with automobiles are 100% preventable barring any mechanical defects." All accidents, by definition, are preventable. That ignores the reality that accidents can, do, and will happen, even among highly trained individuals. Recognizing that and putting an extra "safety layer" into the mix can be quite appropriate, depending on the situation and the individual.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2010
  20. aippi

    aippi

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    I normally don't continue to reply, however, the incidents I refered to "for when I had to make quick decision to use a weapon" were in the line of duty, except one. To tell me to move to a better area and to learn avoid trouble better is rediculous and simply shows the different perspective of the men on these forums who have carried weapons in the line of duty and those who have them not. I am now retired and have made a reasonable choice to use this as my first HD load. You can state your view on the subject and the readers can decide if it is right for them. And be assured, many will as they see the logic behind this. Others will not and that is their decision, they are not wrong any more then I am right.