Protect Yourself Without Ever Firing a Shot?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Old Junes, May 16, 2011.

  1. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak KO Windows

    Where in that article was he defending himself? Without getting into all the emotion of Open Carry... where exactly was that clown arrested for defending himself? He was arrested for open carrying (whether it was a proper arrest or not, is for the court to decide).

    There's other examples(and frankly, far better ones) of people being arrested after a self defense incident, that would have been better to point out.

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  2. As mentioned, if deadly force is legally appropriate you are probably OK. If you are just drawing to try to scare someone maybe you should put on an ugly mask and yell "BOO!" real loud instead.

  3. This is great! You always make me laugh, and think.
  4. I agree, it has now escalated.
    #24 Cream Soda Kid, May 17, 2011
    Last edited: May 17, 2011
  5. The second half of the posts above mirror my thoughts, training and IMO good common sense.

    Only pull your gun if you are in a situation that warrants the use of it. Otherwise you could be in some big trouble (Menacing, Brandishing, Etc).

    During any such encounter, you should be constantly evaluating the situation. You do not want to train yourself that a trigger pull is automatic after drawing.

    Say someone turns and runs, or backs off with their hand up as they see you un-holster. Shooting them in the back, or after surrender in front of witnesses lands you in a world trouble in the form of homicide, or manslaughter.

    Of course you must always be willing and able to pull the trigger if necessary, for the above mentioned reasons.
    #25 Jayock, May 17, 2011
    Last edited: May 17, 2011
  6. Ramifications for brandishing a deadly weapon without legal justification to use deadly are a couple that come to mind:

    Arrested for brandishing, fined, incarcerated, weapon confiscated, permit revoked.

    Killed in self-defence (i.e., the other person will have legal justification to use deadly force to protect themselves...because unless they are actively committing a felony, you just gave them the "high ground". You will have illegally threatened a person with deadly force, giving them the right of will have turned yourself into the BG).
    #26 dosei, May 17, 2011
    Last edited: May 17, 2011
  7. Denied

    Denied NRA Member

    Drawing a weapon OTHER than when deadly force is justified is like the forward pass, three thing can happen and two are bad;
    1. The subject turns and walks away, that the good.
    2. The subject takes exception to you pulling a gun and the situation escalates leaving you in the wrong, that's bad.
    3. The subject walks but calls the law and files charges against you, that also bad.
    Not to mention that you have given away your greatest advantage, that of surprise.

    In Ohio the charge would likely be;

    2903.21 Aggravated menacing.

    (A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person’s unborn, or a member of the other person’s immediate family.

    (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated menacing. Except as otherwise provided in this division, aggravated menacing is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the victim of the offense is an officer or employee of a public children services agency or a private child placing agency and the offense relates to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, aggravated menacing is a felony of the fifth degree or, if the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to an offense of violence, the victim of that prior offense was an officer or employee of a public children services agency or private child placing agency, and that prior offense related to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, a felony of the fourth degree.

    Effective Date: 04-10-2001
  8. I wouldn't do it.

    Brandishing carries 5 yrs here in FL and people do get arrested and go to jail for it. I know of someone that got 5 yrs last year for doing it.

    I always carry less-lethal and if there was a situation I felt I absolutely had to intervene, I would consider it.
  9. A couple years back someone attempted to break into my grandparents house while my grandmother was home alone. I arrived at the sametime as the police. They did not find anyone lurking around the outside of the house so they left. I looked out the window because we were expecting my brother and noticed the tailights on one of the cars were lit up. I went outside to find someone in the car. He may have been there the whole time. I called 911 and wait for them to dispatch the officers back out. The BG saw me and got out. Started to climb the fence to come into the yard. I drew and did not have to fire. When the officers arrived they knew from the 911 call that was being played over the radio that I was armed and had the BG at gunpoint because he attempted to come over the fence. The officer arrived and I put my gun on the ground and stepped back. The officers did not draw on me. The BG was arrested for attempted breaking and entering and trespassing. Once they had him in custody and finished the report, they gave me my EDC back. I asked them what ramifications I would be facing and they said none. I think it really.depends on the responding officers and how you conduct yourself. I would do it again if I had to but hope it never comes to it again. I did not get charged with anything or made to feel by the LEO that I had done anything wrong. It definitely changes your view and thought process when you have to draw. I would have shot him had he come into the fenced area.

    FYI....this was in a major metropolitan area in NC.
  10. bustedknee

    bustedknee Curmudgeon

    This is a thread that needed only one reply post and this was it.

    It appears some people could use a bit more training, a bit more maturity, or a bit more intelligence.
  11. barstoolguru

    barstoolguru texas proud

    this is what texas says.........
    § 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
    is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.31;
    (2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation
    would not have retreated; and
    (3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect himself against the other's use or
    attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
    assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
    (b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not
    apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time
    of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the
    habitation of the actor.
    notice it does not give a degree of the crime, but the crime itself

    how a lawyer looks at it

    The Burden of Proof for Self-Defense

    In any criminal case, the prosecution's main goal is to show that a crime was committed. In this instance, the prosecution must simply show that a weapon was brandished, which qualifies as assault. Whenever a defendant chooses to argue self-defense in a case, the burden of proof falls on the defendant, not the prosecution.

    This means that the defendant must prove that the need for self-defense justified the commission of assault. If the defendant cannot successfully argue that self-defense was necessary, s/he may be found guilty of assault or aggravated assault.

    Because self-defense can be a difficult argument to make in an assault case, it is important to seek the advice and assistance of an experienced criminal defense attorney. A criminal attorney can gather all evidence relevant to your case to help you construct a strong defense to your assault charge.
    #32 barstoolguru, May 18, 2011
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  12. I think people overthink this subject, and I'm sure dangerous situations are very often diffused by the simple act of brandishing. BG is being bad, CCW holder pulls gun, BG sh&ts his pants and runs away, end of story.
  13. NMGlocker

    NMGlocker BOOM headshot

    And if the bad guy doesn't run away?
    Whatcha gonna do now Willis?
  14. In some jurisdictions self-defense is an affirmative assertive defense. When it is an assertive defense, the burden of proof is still on the prosecutor.

    Of course IANAL, so I can't tell anyone whether or not that applies to them.
  15. I think we have people arguing over things that they might actually agree on.

    You must be willing, able and justified to use the deadly force before drawing the gun. But people arguing of the "run away" scenario are trying to point out that just because you had to pull, you may not always have to shoot, or be legal if you shoot. The run away scenario is a prime example.

    I've read that for an average carrier, it takes between 1 and 1.5 seconds to draw from concealment and put a shot on target. Well trained and practiced may be a bit faster. Alot can change in 1 second, and the shooting may no longer be justified.

    Of course if the attack continues, you must have the absolute resolve to end the encounter with the force you have presented by drawing the weapon.
    #36 Jayock, May 18, 2011
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  16. Brandishing is not a simple act, it is an act that carries quite a bit of baggage with it. You don't brandish. You bring your gun into play if and only if deadly force is appropriate. You don't have to use that deadly force, but it darned sure better be there when you you start threatening someone with a gun.
  17. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    I'm not going to be the guy who draws his gun and waves it around.

    I might draw it quietly and keep it hidden if it looks like I might need it momentarily, but as a general rule I'm not going to draw it unless I intend to use it, though circumstances can change quickly and it might become unnecessary to shoot.

    Happyguy :)
  18. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

    Unless, perhaps, you happen to be a PPD officer?
  19. TBO

    TBO Why so serious?

    Thank you for the compliment Sir.
    It is always my hope that I can add to a discussion/topic, and help to promote thinking/approaching the topic from multiple angels.

    Sometimes a photo/picture can help convey a thought in a way that text may not.

    All the best


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