I agree with you. We need a combination of energy AND penetration. One or the other generally won't be enough. I also agree that for large animals (bear) we need a deep penetrating hollowpoint. That is why I carry XTP's in the woods as a backup to my SG or rifle. I really have gotten to like the Black Talons though. The expansion characteristics in the video I posted are superb. Yes, I know it wasn't flesh, but the expansion this bullet gives in water is a good example of what it may be capable of. If I get to the gun show this weekend I will keep my eye out for some. I wish Winchester still produced the 10mm Ranger round. That would be nice. Perhaps a call or email to Winchester is in order. It sure can't hurt, especially if we can convince them the 10mm is back on the rise and there will be a demand for factory ammo. I will disagree on one point you made. The data for 10mm shootings is lacking. I personally would like to see more data, with the different loadings / bullets / power levels. More data can only benefit the 10mm and shooting community in general. Thanks for the dialogue. Wanna kill these ads? We can help!