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Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by Scatch Maroo, Sep 29, 2004.

  1. senseijohn


    May 25, 2005
    Hi everyone. I am unsure of the source, however I recall hearing of an incident where a military diplomatic bodyguard needed to open fire in a crowded room. His solution was to drop to the floor landing on his elbows. He took a single shot with a .45auto killing the attacker. The angle to target was believed to be between 45 and 60 degrees. The Ambassador was quite impressed. MORAL: LEOs or civilians have the opportunity to move prior to a shot (ala the Mexican drill). That is to say, movement on any plane, in advance or retreat, horizontal or vertical to ensure the safest attack angle.
  2. Toomas

    Toomas GMG 5"54calMk42

    Feb 4, 2005
    San Jose CA

  3. 147 Grain

    147 Grain

    Jan 21, 2005
    ....but the frequency of being hit by an overpenetrating bullet is far less than being hit by a stray round at full power.

    Overpenetration is the exception here and not the rule as too many are worried about.
  4. Toomas

    Toomas GMG 5"54calMk42

    Feb 4, 2005
    San Jose CA
    I absolutely agree 100%. There are far too many folks buying firearms without putting enough thought and practice into it. Firearms owners have a responsibility to become somewhat proficient with their firearms so that they can actually hit a reasonable target. Most people couldn't hit a person standing in the same room much less standing 25 yards away. But it looks so easy on tv......

    My G20 with 150 gn Noslers pushed by 7 grains of Winchester231 at about 1250 fps, topped by an eotech holosight, will keep 8 out of 10 on a 10" bell at 100 yards from an off hand modified weaver stance. I can hit any reasonable target (and them some), so I like to consider overpenetration in my home defense loads. I keep my 15 rd mag loaded with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), then I've got 6 glaser safety slugs, and then the rest are my pet homeloaded noslers.
  5. Turk40SW


    Nov 14, 2004
    Houston, Tx
    warning shot?

    IMHO that's a really bad idea.. If I need to pull the trigger, its because I want someone stopped right that very second.. Warning shots will get you killed or thrown in jail..

    I prefer 12-14" of penetration.. 14 being a winter carry to deal with extra layering.

    If I had the gear, I'd setup a chronometer on the back side of a 12" slab of Ballistics gelatin "wearing clothes" front and back with another slab behind it, also wearing "wearing clothes". Maybe a 3ft distance..

    I'm not worried about overpenetration as i am missing.. I am guessing that after 12" of travel through COM the bullet's velocity has dropped so low, and expanded so large that the chances of causing major damage to a second person is slim.. I could be wrong, i'm just deducing
  6. DonD


    Dec 21, 2001
    Central TX
    For Toomas, if you fire a warning shot here in NM, you're likely to end up in jail. You may only shoot if you're at risk of death or serious bodily injury. You also cannot pull the gun to "warn" the assailant. Without real risk of the above serious injury or death, you're guilty of brandishing a firearm and again are in trouble. Don
  7. Darkangel1846


    Jul 19, 2004
    What ya gonna do if your Eotech fails?
  8. Toomas

    Toomas GMG 5"54calMk42

    Feb 4, 2005
    San Jose CA
    I do put a lot of faith and trust in my eotechs. I have one on my hunting bow as well as my G20, and I have another that is currently on my backup bow, although I'm considering mounting it on my SKS. Needless to say, I use these eotechs for serious field work. I keep spare batteries on hand at all times just in case. If the eotech failed to light at a critical moment I would still feel comfortable hitting close my mark at close quarters by just looking through the blank window and relying on my natural instinct to point and shoot. Worst case scenario I'll grab another piece-I always keep backup close by. For the bow, if my eotech fails at a critical moment while hunting then I will miss my opportunity. But I keep the eotech mounted as such because of the trust and reliabilty I have in it, including the long battery life and ease of use.
  9. Toomas

    Toomas GMG 5"54calMk42

    Feb 4, 2005
    San Jose CA
    Again I agree 100%. I'll reiterate with a quote from my previous statement-"with the first bullet being a 180 gn fmj for a warning shot (to me a warning shot is in the leg or foot), ". I would never brandish my piece for a "show" of force and I would never fire at an inanimate object as a "warning" to whomever is posing a threat. My "warning" shot in the leg or foot (or even better the hip)is intended to debilitate and stop further progress of a life threatening assailant without killing them. I have a hard time believing that any state or local law would require that self defense situations demand a lethal shot while faulting a person for aiming to simply disable the attacker. Ideally the attacker will be kept alive so that they can be further be brought to justice and made into an example.

    Nonlethal first shots are a bad idea for most "defenders" who need to ensure that the assailant does not have a second chance, and laws do penalize for intent to maim and cripple. And, of course deadly force can only be used if yours/others life is being immediately threatened. But it doesn't mean that you can't surgically stop your assailant. I'd love to hear more if there are cases where persons in defense situations were prosecuted for wounding their assailant where their intent was to protect themselves without killing someone.

    I'm confident enough in my skills to attempt a nonlethal first shot if the situation warrants. The "warning" to the assailant is simply one that says "I am also armed and have attempted to stop your use of deadly force, and I will further use my deadly force if you do not cease and surrender". This situation cannot be illegal, but please cite an example of a law or case study if it is. I'd be fascinated to see this.

    Now if I'm faced with a situation where I feel that I may not have the first shot, or if I cannot get a good bead, then torso it is.

    The mantras in the basic gun handling rules do say that you should never produce a firearm without full intent to use it with deadly force, and that you should never aim it without intent to destroy your target. The complete set of gun rules and many others are fully engrained in me through training and experience. If I pull a piece, then it will be used appropriately, but I will limit the use of that force to a less lethal level if at all possible.
  10. senseijohn


    May 25, 2005
    Hi everyone. Mr. Toomas, a "surgical" shot placement in a gunfight is not probable. At the range you may group quite well, however, the range is not a gunfight. For your amusement, at the range please do 100 jumping-jacks, followed by 50 sit-ups, followed by 30 push-ups. This should mimic the physiological stressors of a firearm confrontation. Immediatly attempt to make your "surgical" shots at around 5 to 7 meters. This should provide you with enlightenment. Good luck.
  11. bdcochran


    Sep 23, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Is overpenetration a problem?

    Hmmm! Is overpenetration a matter of the round going through the intended target, exiting and hitting something you don't want to hit? Well, if so, you have options:

    1. do not shoot;
    2. aim to hit the target in a location where any overpentration will not hit something you want to hit.

    Is overpentration a matter of the round not remaining in the target and you having a belief that the round will penetrate and exit the target? Well, if so, let's explore the options:

    1. hit the target where over penetration will not occur. This sounds ludicrous when you are shooting an exposed hand, an exposed knee or elbow of a BG, right? And, just how often do you personally think that you will have a stationary target 6 feet away that it allows you to shoot center mass all day?
    2. hit the target with a blunt instrument like 28 inch cast iron water pipe with end caps; knock the target down with your martial arts skills

    The discussion of "overpenetration" usually occurs in the context of shooting a shotgun inside an apartment or shooting a rifle round. My attitude may not be politically correct. Too bad. I want a round that goes through walls, car engines, car doors and when it hits someone, the person goes down for the count. I don't want to have to be thinking about select slug drills, low recoil or whimp rounds, using underpowered rounds that will get me killed. If I am concerned about the backdrop to the BG, I change the angle of the shot or simply decide that I don't mind being killed because I am concerned about a round going through a BG or a wall and hitting someone else.:soap: ;z
  12. Toomas

    Toomas GMG 5"54calMk42

    Feb 4, 2005
    San Jose CA
    The hip is a good point to aim at for most situations, since:
    1. it will allow a lower angle of trajectory, helping to minimize overpenetration risks
    2. it's a fairly large mass to aim at
    3. immediate disablement and loss of balance
    4. not necessarily lethal
    5. lots of bone to help limit overpenetration
    6. if the target is moving the torso follows the hip

    But in the heat of the moment it's not easy to remember the drills so you've just go to do whatever it takes....
  13. boraxis


    Oct 13, 2005
    I always thought the issue was accidental wall or barrier "overpenetration" when you miss, because you can't take into account who might be behind the target if you can't see them through the wall. It's probably not practical to be too concerned about it otherwise and it's ridiculous to say you'll just be sure not to miss.

    If you saw your kid or your Mom or your favorite dog right behind a BG, you'd probably automatically consider the consequences of a miss or overpenetration, even if all you were shooting was a .22 pistol. I hope.

    You have to choose where you find a balance and be prepared to take responsibility for your choice. Between a .454 and a 10mm I'd go with the 10 for home defense, any load. My neighbor though, I hope he has a 9. What about your neighbor?
  14. ppro


    Dec 7, 2002
    Over Penetration with the 10MM

    Over, under, insufficient, excessive ????

    Ye gods, what have the lawyers done to us !! ;P

    I don't cop anymore....worse yet, I am federal contract, armed in a room full of people, often off their meds, 10/96 and hopefully off their illegal drugs. Oh fun !

    I don't worry about over penetration, but I run EVERY CONCEIVABLE TATICAL mental what if, on a regular basis, and PRACTICE.

    Over penetration is probably the least of my worries. NOT STOPPING a armed crazed assailant intent on taking out other innocent persons, worries me much more.

  15. boraxis


    Oct 13, 2005
    Crap, the lawyers had me believing it was the gun mags that did this to us! Good post ppro. In real life my best neighbor has a .44 Mag and I appreciate having him around, especially in this neighborhood.
  16. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    Jul 26, 2002

    Hoss you are right! ;)

    Man i want to leave a hole big enough, and deep enough, to pitch a mule through! ;f

    Hand guns are not the instant killers everyone makes them out to be, so if you are going to carry one to defend yourself, why not use ammo that is going to get #1.. Max Penetration, and then if, #2.. it does expand, great!

    "Please don't answer, but how many of ya have ever really been shot at, or shot someone else? (don't reply ok, because i don't want to answer back)." I'm just saying, that so much of this 'Internet talk' is just that, 'talk.' People need to talk about what they know, not about what they have 'no clue about,' and read here or there, or heard someone say, or figured out on a calculater, or saw on CSI, etc.

    Through & Through's, if you want to use this term, "do happen," But again, it is the guy scared spitless, spraying bullets wildly, or a miss for whatever reason, that is bad news to the innocent, not the over penetration.

    Shoot ammo that will get the best penetration, and learn the weapon, and learn to shoot!

    Sorry but all this 'Lone Ranger' and "B" western talk is Bull.

    Shooting in the leg, shoot the shoulder, pop a knee joint, or a hip joint, take this stance that stance. My goodnes! If you got time to worry about your stance, with two or three guys shooting at you, you are really a cool character. If you can hit a knee joint under pressure, and stress to the max, and chaos going on to the max, "it's dumb," but you are a cool customer, and a great shot.

    Is this possible,? Sure, but my question is "why" ?

    To the "very highly" trained professional, this is even more possible, and even under tons of stress, and they may have cause for this type of action, for a 'specific tatical reason.'

    But to the armed citizen, that can't even hardly clean his gun without a manual, this is just plain dumb!

    It is very easy to see why there are so many gun related accidents each year, because there are so many people who do not have a clue how to use them, 'or their head,' in a situation. If you can't get a grip on "How" to handle that weapon, then for God sake just use mace.

    Just my $ 1.95 ;f

  17. Greybeard


    Dec 26, 2002
    North Texas
    Quote: "Hand guns are not the instant killers everyone makes them out to be"

    You got that right! A "real world" example: During "extended spike and doe season" last weekend in Runnels County, I had a 40-yard shot on an old fat doe.

    Handgun was Ruger SBH, 7 1/2" barrel. Hornady factory ammo, 240 grain XTP. Box sez 1900 fps at muzzle.

    The doe had been facing me, but I waited until she turned predominately broadside before dropping the hammer. The XTP to lower chest made about a 1 1/2" entry hole in her hide, punched a slightly smaller hole into rib cage, caught the top of heart and one lung before leaving a barely-bleeding exit hole about 1/2 that diameter in rear of opposite side ribs.

    Did the doe drop right there? Hardly. She immediately turned 180 degrees and ran like the wind for a solid 60 yards before piling up. After taking virtually a "text book" shot through the heart from a premo .452" 240 grain bullet traveling at around 1800 fps.

    Does not exactly give even a .45 fan (with only about 1/2 the velocity) the warm fuzzies, huh?
  18. freakshow10mm

    freakshow10mm 10mm Advocate

    Velocity= trajectory. KE= penetration. When I look at ballistic charts and I see a velocity figure versus another I think faster bullet, flatter trajectory. When I see KE on chart, I think more KE, more penetration.

    Observations on hunting:

    Unless it is a CNS hit, the animal dies from blood pressure loss, which takes time. The average time it takes for a deer or similar animal's blood pressure to drop to the point they "pile up" is around 8-12 seconds. I have read this in a number of hunting mags and tested this theory myself over the years. I take hunting and gun rags with a grain of salt, but this has been proven to be fairly accurate too.

    When a deer runs for 100 yards after the shot it it usually takes about 10 seconds to cover that distance. I'll take a conservative estimate of speed at 20mph (300' at 10 seconds= 30fps) based on the above figures. This runs is like an average deer, from a mature buck to a young doe or fawn. Average "tail up" speed is usually 20-25mph.

    I use this to estimate distance ran after the shot if I can't eyeball the animal the whole time. I figure about 10 yards per second on a good sprint, being conservative, makes a good starting point. If I hear the animal running through the woods for 5 seconds, I figure it will be about 50 yards away from where it was hit. Over the years, this has held to be pretty accurate. I think the top speed for deer is probably closer to 25-30mph, but this gives a good estimate for field use.

    Basically, the thing working against us is time.

    Incoherent rambling:

    I think the kinetic energy figure gives an estimate of the penetration of that particular projectile at that velocity. Velocity and energy are interdependant on each other. The higher the velocity the higher the energy. A KE figure gives me an idea of how deep it will penetrate into a body to reach the vitals. That is to say the same bullet with different KE figures, the one with more KE will penetrate deeper. KE is dependant of mass and velocity. Bullet design is also a factor and not taken into consideration for purposes of my ncoherent ramblings.

    If a bullet reaches the vitals, it has done its job. That is what I want it to do. If I shoot a solid, non-expanding bullet at an animal, and it reaches the vitals, the bullet did the job. It entered the vital cavity and did damage, leading to blood loss and subsequent death of an animal via catastrophic blood pressure loss.

    Expansion is just a bonus for me. I use larger calibers in handguns as a sort of "insurance policy" of an expanding bullet failing to expand. If a .45 caliber bullet fails to expand, at least I have a .45 caliber cutting diameter in the target doing damage (causing blood loss). Expansion is like a coefficient of damage. A .45 caliber slug that expands to .9 caliber does twice the damage, since the damage is basically the leading edge of the bullet doing the cutting of living tissue and not the shaft of the bullet. I don't get hung up on temporary vs. permanent wound cavity. A bullet twice the diameter of another will (theoretically) cut twice as much tissue resulting in twice as much damage and more, but not necessarily twice as much, blood loss, resulting in the incapacitation of that animal.
    glockzilla10mm likes this.
  19. Late last year I experimented with 175gr Silvertips from a stock G20 and really wasn't impressed. My goal is to have as much of an energy dump/expansion with full penetration that won't go into the next county.

    Just for fun I chronographed some 210gr Silvertips from a .44 mag and may have achieved that goal. In recovering 3 of the 4 rounds recovered; expansion measured between .96" to 1.106" which is very impressive from a .429 bullet. The fourth round expanded to .706" and spun off a shard of lead approximately .25" wide and 1.07" long. This was not from a full boogy load, chrono was over 1550fps which equates to about 1150ftlbs of energy.

    180gr in .40 cal is relatively close in sectional density to 210grs in .429 cal.; 140grs in .357 and 230grs in .451 cal.

    Using three different powders it was very easy to run 180gr Golden Sabers from a 6" KKM barrel from 1280fps (600ftlbs) to 1370fps (750ftlbs) and these bullets penetrated and expanded better than I was able to get several months ago from a stock G20 (combination sheet metal and/or sand and/or wood).

    I expect 175gr Silvertips in 10mm to at least equal the 180gr GS bullet's velocity and leave a golf ball sized hole thru a BG and not penetrate the first layer of sheet rock in a room. This of course is supposition on my part, but the Silvertips are very explosive in their expansion, they tend to hold together and the velocity/energy from a 10mm should be enough to push a .90" bullet through a BG and expend itself upon hitting another barrier.

    The Strasburg Papers give a different quantitative slant to what Fackler published; but they agree that .451 230gr FMJ is the smallest ball ammo that should be used for self defense and also the need for multiple shots on the bad guy.

  20. Redondo

    Redondo CLM

    Sep 30, 2000
    Over penetration is a worry, ONLY, for those that wish to bunch themselves up, in areas, where they NEED IT!!! :) Been there, done that,.... moved on!