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Open Carry...

Discussion in 'Michigan Glockers' started by FBGV60, Jan 23, 2007.

  1. FBGV60

    FBGV60

    7
    0
    Nov 30, 2006
    Detroit Mighigan
    I was interested in open carry laws in MI... I found an awsome thread that explained alot using search. However I am unclear as to what the laws are regarding open carry. Are you telling me that i had to take a 95 dollar Protection in the home class so i could get my CCW. When all i really had to do is open carry? There is no permit required to strap my 23 on and go outside? I ask because i think it would be nice to have my 23 while hunting. But I am 3 months from graduating and I am going into Law Enforcement. Though im leaving the state because there are no jobs i still would hate to have problems 3 months before i look for jobs!


    Thanx in advance!
     
  2. Scooter70

    Scooter70

    77
    0
    Sep 8, 2006
    SE Michigan
    The way it was explained to me is this: While there is no state statute forbidding open carry, almost every city/town in SE MI has their own local statutes against it. So while you're not breaking any federal or state laws, you could (probably) be violating a local one. There have been a few discussions here in the MI forum and I think the general consensus is that concealed is better. Why advertise to the bad guy that you're carrying? Why frighten the little old lady at the grocery store who's "scared of guns" so she calls the cops to tell them that there's a "guy with a gun" in Meijer.
     


  3. Bumpadrum

    Bumpadrum zoom in & FOCUS

    Open carry may or may not be "legal", but it is always going to bring a hassle. Always, at least in Michigan.
    My one personal association with an open carry situation came when a local decided to mow his lawn with an AR slung over his
    shoulder and a .45 on his hip. It ended real bad, especially for one LEO. Keep it covered.
     
  4. 10 Ring Tao

    10 Ring Tao Red White Blue

    860
    0
    Sep 18, 2003
    Southeast Michigan
    Do tell the rest...
     
  5. GIJoeCam

    GIJoeCam

    23
    0
    Dec 8, 2003
    Newport, MI
    Indeed, while it's not illegal, it's going to draw a lot of unneeded and unwanted attention.

    I recall hearing a story a few years back about a guy that walked into a Meijers carrying unconcealed in a thigh holster. It wasn't fun... he quoted chapter and verse and had copies of the Michigan laws in his pockets to show the police... the bottom line was that he got a slap on the wrist for disorderly conduct and signed a statement that he would not return to a Meijers again.

    As for carrying while hunting, it's not entirely legal... the DNR allows CCW holders to carry concealed while afield as long as no attempt is made to use it to take game with it. I'm not sure about carrying unconcealed without a CCW though... My initial thought is that the DNR would not allow it...

    I'll have to peruse the DNR web site I guess...

    -Joe
     
  6. 10 Ring Tao

    10 Ring Tao Red White Blue

    860
    0
    Sep 18, 2003
    Southeast Michigan
    In the FAQ you mention, they say that open carry is ok so long as its obvious you aren't trying to take game. They warn that should you put on a coat or other garment that could cover it, you'd then be concealing it, and in legal peril.
     
  7. GIJoeCam

    GIJoeCam

    23
    0
    Dec 8, 2003
    Newport, MI
    I found part of it...

    http://michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10953--,00.html
    But I think there was another part of the rules that covers hunting with a concealed handgun....

    Here's one that confirms it from the hunting rules...

    But I thought there was something else... I want to say it was specific to bow season....

    Found it!!
    http://michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31578--,00.html

    The way I read it, during rifle season or any other time, you'd be fine carrying unconcealed. During bow season, you've better have a CCW to have the pistol with you.

    Now, if you're wandering through the woods not attempting to take game during bow season (which is usually a bad idea on state land anyways), I guess you would be legal to carry unconcealed, but I dunno... could end up in a gray area....

    -Joe
     
  8. Bumpadrum

    Bumpadrum zoom in & FOCUS

    OK. I was working as a TV news cameraman. Heard a 'man with a gun' call on the scanner. Downtown Traverse City, in the mansion district. I got there right after the Officer and parked around the corner. The Officer was on the sidewalk talking to the homeowner, who was about 60 feet away and behind his lawnmower. He was telling the Officer, Sgt. Dennis Finch, that it was "his right " to mow the lawn with any weapon he wanted slung over his shoulder. When he saw me shooting video he walked up onto his porch. Sgt. Finch followed him but maintained his distance. They talked for more than an hour. They had known each other for over 20 years due to the homeowners numerous run-ins with the law. This gave me the opportunity to shoot many close-ups, clearly identifying the weapons and John, the homeowner. It also allowed City and County law enforcement to close the neighborhood and circle the house, with me inside the perimiter. At one point John rolled a cigarette and tried to light up with a wooden match. Too windy so he turned his back. For some reason Sgt. Finch saw this as a chance to end the situation. He charged up the stairs but John got around with the AR-15 and ripped off a mag. At this point all the officers surrounding opened up. My tape shows approximately 177 rounds being fired in the initial contact.
    Sgt. Finch was hit 10-15 times, starting at his foot, up his leg and across his chest. The closest officer (a female hero) started talking to Sgt Finch and John immediately. Sgt. Finch can clearly be heard saying "I'm ok but I think I'm dying". Then 2 Sheriffs Deputys just charge the porch and drag Sgt. Finch to safety. A police sniper eventually shot John, twice in the chest with an AR, and they eventually dragged him out. Alive.
    Sgt. Dennis Finch died that day after 30 years on the job.
    I testified in the murder trial and my video put John away for good. He had found out my name, so everytime I covered him perp walking he always screamed at me personally, insisting that I doctored the tape. It made for good TV. The video went up on the bird, worldwide, and when I called the #1 TV station in Detroit they hired me on the phone when I told them that it was my video. But I digress.
    Anytime you open carry you will inevitability frighten the sheep, which will alert the sheepdogs.
    LEO's will ALWAYS make contact with you if you do it.
     
  9. 10 Ring Tao

    10 Ring Tao Red White Blue

    860
    0
    Sep 18, 2003
    Southeast Michigan
    And the sad thing is, all he wanted was to be left alone. If they had done that, none of those horrible things would have happened.
     
  10. Bikenut

    Bikenut

    267
    0
    Sep 21, 2004
    In harm's way.
    And not frightening the sheep is a reason to not exercise a Constitutionally guaranteed right? I think NOT! The problem is the sheep need to be exposed to the sight of openly carried guns very often so they can get over their paranoid fear of inanimate objects.

    No one has the right to not be frightened, or annoyed, or angered, by seeing a gun. But the right to bear arms IS a right. Those who do feel unjustified fear at the sight of a legally carried firearm need to spend some time talking to a psychiatrist... because THEY are the one with a problem. And I am not responsible for making sure other people aren't bothered by their own problems.
     
  11. Bumpadrum

    Bumpadrum zoom in & FOCUS

    In this case the man was a drug-addled trust fund baby with an ax to grind. I am proud of my part in putting him in prison for the rest of his life.
     
  12. wizzi01

    wizzi01

    1,648
    187
    Jun 14, 2004
    Detroit,MI
    So because you think he was "drug-addled" and jealous he had a trust fund he should be put in jail for the rest of his life? I mean we do have rights. Hell I can open carrry on my property in Detroit. If the officer would have just let him be he would not have been shot by his fellow officers. Also, do not think I hate cops. I have life long friends that are officers.
     
  13. mike23

    mike23

    429
    0
    Jan 6, 2004
    The Range
    I must be missing something. What occurred to justify the use of deadly force by the homeowner against Sgt Finch?

    I support unabridged rights under the 2nd amendment but this idiot isn't the poster boy I want representing me.
     
  14. 10 Ring Tao

    10 Ring Tao Red White Blue

    860
    0
    Sep 18, 2003
    Southeast Michigan
    Of course, I was only speaking in the context of him mowing his lawn on his own property at that time.

    Just like the woman who got tackled in new orleans, in the context of that encounter, if the cops had just left them alone, everything would have turned out just fine.


    True, definitely not a desired poster boy.

    However, the other important question to ask, is why was that kind of escalation necessary in the first place? Why couldn't he have been convinced to just put the guns in the house, and a ticket written to make the responders feel like they didn't just walk away without giving some kind of punishment?

    If officer safety is really their number one goal, then let the guy make his nonviolent point on his own property. Don't force a situation into one where people with guns, who aren't technically doing anything wrong, are being tackled.
     
  15. mike23

    mike23

    429
    0
    Jan 6, 2004
    The Range

    The lawnmower dude had no justification for using lethal force. Any support I might have for him to open carry on his own property ceased when he became violent.
     
  16. Bikenut

    Bikenut

    267
    0
    Sep 21, 2004
    In harm's way.
    Actually the lawnmower dude's open carry and his stupid attack upon the officer are two seperate and individual issues. The open carry had nothing to do with the attack other than the gun being available to use during the attack.

    We have to be careful to be able to differentiate between the gun and the actions. The lawnmower dude was a loose cannon to begin with (my assumption from his having a history of interaction with police) and his capability of violence was there anyway... regardless of if he had any gun with him at the time.

    Anti gun folks love to connect any violent actions to the tool used during that violence. The plain truth is the lawnmower dude would have done something stupid anyway... gun or no gun. And the open carry had nothing to do with his stupid attack on a police officer. After all... he could have have not been open carrying and instead used a gun he might have had just inside the door. The results would have been the same... a violent man used a gun against a police officer without legal justification.

    Where the gun was is immaterial. What is important is that a violent criminal attacked an officer without justification... the tool used, or where that tool was, has nothing to do with it at all. Punish the criminal... not the tool, the use of the tool, or where the tool was before use.

    Please do not think that the above post means I have any support for the lawnmower dude's actions... I most certainly do NOT! But I do support his right to open carry and because that is a right there should have been (assuming that the open carry is all that was going on) absolutely no interaction from police just for legal open carry. To my mind... assuming open carry was legal where this all took place... the person the cop should have been talking to was whoever made the 911 "man with a gun" call explaining that the lawnmower dude was not breaking any laws... and to get over it.

    Please bear in mind I'm addressing a general overview of this incident and I'm sure there are more details as to why the officer decided to take the actions he did... but the simple act of open carry should not have caused any interaction with the police.... or anyone for that matter.
     
  17. Toxie

    Toxie

    68
    0
    Apr 30, 2004
    Actually, you are mistaken. His wearing weapons like that is ASKING for the attention. That was (obviously) the point. Every other person on this board has already stated that they expect to be hassled if they open carry, do you really think that he didn't either? It is obvious that he was attempting to force a confrontation. Add to that possible mental problems and/or drug use and you have someone who isn't stable to begin with, and he probably should't have been in possession of a gun to BEGIN with.


    Your crusade to villanise the police blinds you to that fact that not everyone is like YOU (law abiding and mentally stable). Do a search for Sgt. Dennis Finch and John Clark. John CLark is like timothy mcveigh. Unable to settle matters in a socially acceptable fashon.

    Link to the ****bag:
    ****BAG
     
  18. 10 Ring Tao

    10 Ring Tao Red White Blue

    860
    0
    Sep 18, 2003
    Southeast Michigan
    As I said before, my comments were only in the context of him openly carrying on that day. I merely posed the question, that if officer safety were really the number one priority, why was it all escalated as it was? What would have happened if he had been left alone, and his cry for attention not appeased like a misbehaving child?

    And my words you see as attempted villanizing, are only directed at situations where a precedent is expressed that makes my life as a law abiding citizen more difficult.


    I understand positive reinforcement.
     
  19. GIJoeCam

    GIJoeCam

    23
    0
    Dec 8, 2003
    Newport, MI
    Some of you have decried the officer's actions, and anyone can explain what went wrong and why. However, my question would be, "What would you consider the 'proper' response for the officer to the report of a person mowing his lawn with an assault rifle over his shoulder?"

    When an officer responds, is it unreasonable for him to ask you to put down the weapon while he talks to you? I'm not a PO and I don't play one on TV, but I don't feel that's an unreasonable request, private property or not. As PO entering that situation, I don't know what's going on or why, all I know is that I've got a a person wearing a weapon that can kill me, and a duty to investigate it. I don't think a peacable request to drop the weapon for the duration of the investigation is unreasonable. Any reasonable person will comply at that point. This guy was, obviously, neither rational nor reasonable.

    Now, once the officer has made the request, and the civilian has refused to comply, now what? Was it the officer's duty turn around, walk away, and say, "well, he's not *technically* doing anything illegal, so I'll just let him cut his grass?" I don't think so.

    So, now you have a standoff. A person disobeying the direct order of a police officer, and a civilian who doesn't think he's done anything wrong. Again, rational and reasonable people wouldn't likely allow it to get to that point, and wouldn't continue to escalate at that point (again, we're no longer dealing with rational and reasonable). So, now you have a standoff... now what? Is the officer supposed to turn and leave? Call in the SWAT team? Somewhere in between?

    I dunno... I think if I was in the PO's shoes, I may have attempted the same thing. I don't think I could have just turned and left. I dunno.
     
  20. Bumpadrum

    Bumpadrum zoom in & FOCUS

    Toxie, thanks for the idea, I never Googled them before, or read or saw anything other than my stations coverage. The link to the prison site was an eyeopener. I'm sure nobody here supports John Clark, opinions on open carry notwithstanding.
    The one article mentioned his stash. I got the call when the search was executed. I saw it.
    It was amazing. He had what I think was a Barrett .50 cal single shot, multiple AR's and AK's. Many other rifles, shotguns and pistols.
    And he had a pound of c-4 and caps.