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'Open Carry' Lawsuit Against Warren, MI, Settled

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by jph02, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. jph02

    jph02

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    A Warren, MI, man settled his lawsuit against the city for $5,000 and police training.

    'Open Carry' Gun Lawsuit Against Warren Settled

    Although the article leads me to believe he had a good case for excessive force, I wonder what's missing from the story since he settled for less than 10% of his original suit. I also wonder how that extra police training is working out since the commissioner doesn't know a thing about it.
     
  2. JohnJak

    JohnJak sadly spent

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    Not to smart.
     

  3. Bruce M

    Bruce M

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    I read the article cited and it didn't seem to suggest he was injured. In your opinion what was the excessive force?
     
  4. Drain You

    Drain You NRA member

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    You must have not read the article where the gangsta wanna be cop rolled up pointing his gun out the window before even securing his car in park.
     
  5. Bruce M

    Bruce M

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    Sorry, I'm still confused. In your opinion is the excessive force because the cruiser was reported to be still moving or that the officer was still in the cruiser?
     
  6. Drain You

    Drain You NRA member

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    No thanks, I'm not biting.
     
  7. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

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    "I'm not biting," interesting...whatever.

    Bruce, if I may, jph02, where did you read that excessive force was an allegation in this case? These are the points stated in the article...

    Drain You, drawing a weapon in the manner he did and under the circumstances as I understand them may be better classified as not the smartest thing to do. Since excessive force is not an element of this case, it is immaterial.

    It may, however, be considered "assault and battery." That is actually the allegation made. I can't remember whether it was the act of drawing the pistol and the words that accompanied that act, or the act of handcuffing him that generated the allegation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  8. jph02

    jph02

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    That, too, but being put facedown on the ground, handcuffed, and 4 officers. All for a holstered side arm. Here's video from the one police car (out of 3) the city of Warren released under a FOIA request by Hamon.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdVWg8499Zs"]Hamaneggs Encounter - Gunpoint, Illegal Search, Assult and Battery Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

    I never said Mr. Hamon alleged excessive force in his lawsuit. I merely said the article led me to believe police acted with excessive force. The officer exiting the vehicle, shown in the video, was pointing his firearm, presumably at Mr. Hamon. Police were responding to more than one 9-1-1 call about a man with a gun "at his hip", so it's reasonable for police to be cautious. But the gun was holstered, according to the article, so weapons drawn seems excessive to me, as does putting him on the ground.

    For clarification, Michigan is an open carry state, which explains why Hamon was not charged. There is no requirement to carry a purchase receipt (or permit) nor to even retain the permit beyond 30 days after purchase. For the record, a CPL (CCW) is not required to open carry, nor is open carry a violation of conditions for a CPL.

    Standard caveat: I am not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
     
  9. Mister_Beefy

    Mister_Beefy Legal & Proper

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    when the police selectively release dashcam video and redact portions of the audio of what they do release, you can be certain they were up to no good.
     
  10. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

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    I meant to comment on this earlier...
    Did you read the second paragraph after the commissioner said Friday he was not aware of the settlement in the Haman case? Here it is...
    Sorry, but it sounds like it will not even go to the Commissioner for implementation until the lawyers for the city finish with it.
     
  11. JW1178

    JW1178

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    Was the officer that responded still a LEO? I hope not. Obviously can't handle the job or the authority.
     
  12. Sharky7

    Sharky7 Boomshakalaka

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    It's comments like these and the underlying insecurity for gov and LE that gets you a bad rap around here. You made the above statement out of thin air with absolutely no experience and only your internal bias. Do a citizen's police academy and you might see the world from another point of view.

    The microphone that is on the police officer's body generally has to be turned on to work. Since it has also happened to me a few hundred times - it is easy to jump out of the vehicle on a hot call and worry more about your safety than activating your microphone. Often when the situation is secure and we get to talking, I remember to turn it on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  13. collim1

    collim1 Shower Time!

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    LE's are damned if you do and damned if you dont in these scenarios. I have seen it time and time again (there are a few OC commandos in my jurisdiction).

    You get a frantic call from a soccer mom saying there is a MWG at walmart and nothing else. Dispatch has no choice but to dispatch it as they get it.

    If you see the dude with a gun and dont stop him cause OC is legal and he shoots up walmart and kills 50 people where are you then? There would be a national outcry on the media wanting to know why a officer was called to a location about a MWG and didn't prevent the shooting because OC is legal.

    Just something to think about.

    Not to mention the OC guys in my jurisdiction go out looking for a confrontation and sometimes it takes hours before someone notices they are OC and they get the confrontation they want.
     
  14. Bruce M

    Bruce M

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    Like it or not it is a fairly standard police procedure for officers to point their guns at suspects even if they only think that a suspect might possibly be armed or might possibly be a suspect of felonious activity. In this case, there was no question that he was armed. So officer(s) ordering him to the ground at gunpoint and handcuffing him is probably well within the policy of their department.


    It does sound as if the officers are not completely familiar with the Michigan gun laws., especially as to the issue of him having a license but/and carrying openly.

    The video does not seem to really provide much information.
     
  15. Bruce M

    Bruce M

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    That is your opinion, but I would guess that whatever agency administers standards for Michigan police officers and a whole bunch of high ranking officers who have the say on retention or firing based on accepted practice and adherence to departmental regulations would disagree.
     
  16. jph02

    jph02

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    I guess I thought the Commissioner—equivalent to the Chief of Police—would have been involved in discussions regarding settlement proposals.

    To clarify, I think the $5k settlement is quite low and the training, which was agreed to in March, is apparently not even on the PD's agenda yet. So, other than maybe recouping attorney fees, there's not much to show from this lawsuit.
     
  17. jph02

    jph02

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    It is readily apparent, watching the video, when the officer turns the microphone on: the screen displays "MIC" at the left of the second line. These recordings are as much for the officer's protection as that of citizens.
     
  18. NEOH212

    NEOH212 Diesel Girl

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    It makes me wonder what they are trying to hide since they won't release the audio.
     
  19. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

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    maybe he was out to get training on this issue, rather than a big payday?

    Randy
     
  20. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

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    I believe they leave the negotiations to
    the attorneys, most definitely anything regarding any sort of settlement.
    Initial amounts are generally "attention getters," especially when the real goal is effecting change. In this case, it appears the PD training was very important.
    It sounds like while the agreement for the training was made earlier this year, the details and scheduling are still being worked on. Again, from the article...
    Have you followed this case on other forums? The attorney fees were covered by donations.