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Open Carry in Bar/Restaurant-

Discussion in 'Glockers of the Old Dominion' started by usdm, Sep 16, 2008.

  1. usdm

    usdm NRA member-ized

    134
    0
    Jan 10, 2008
    nova
    So whats deemed "open carry" in a bar/restaurant? I went out with a friend that was packing IWB and he just tucked his shirt behind his gun and pranced in. Is this "open" considering only the grip was visible?
     
  2. Nothing in VA law says what open carry is.

    Only thing VA law says is that concealed carry is:

    and

    So if folks can see it, and reasonably believe it is a gun than it's open carry.

    Think about what would be said if your friend had been arrested for concealed carry in that restaurant.

    Lawyer: Why did you arrest my client?

    Cop: Because he was carrying a concealed handgun in a bar.

    Lawyer: How did you know my client was carrying a concealed handgun?

    Cop: I saw it on his hip

    Lawyer: Was the gun under his shirt or coat?

    Cop: No

    Lawyer: So you saw the gun openly on his hip with nothing covering it?

    Cop: well it was partially hidden.

    Lawyer: But you could tell it was a gun?

    Cop: Yes I could see the whole grip.

    Lawyer: Your honor I move for dismissal.
     


  3. Gregw/aGlock

    Gregw/aGlock NRA Member

    275
    0
    Jan 18, 2005
    Virginia Beach
    I've done the same thing in restaurants; however, I was sorta "concerned" that my IWB holster (C-TAC Slide) does not have any retention devices. What's the general concensus on that issue?
     
  4. usdm

    usdm NRA member-ized

    134
    0
    Jan 10, 2008
    nova
    Thanks for the replies. I guess the vague law could work for or against us. It's really how the officer sees it at the end of the day.
     
  5. Olivers_AR

    Olivers_AR

    714
    0
    Dec 27, 2007
    Dulles, VA
    Yes its called the Virginia Tuck, and fairly common and does pass the standard for open carry.

    Situational awareness in a bar is a good thing, suggest moving to a position where the strong side is on the inside of the booth or your back is against the wall, etc. There are classes in weapon retention and drills that help one feel more comfortable. The other thing is to participate in one of the open carry events, where there are others in the restaurant that can watch your six.



     
  6. usdm

    usdm NRA member-ized

    134
    0
    Jan 10, 2008
    nova
    The "Virginia Tuck", eh? Interesting. I guess it only flies in VA? I've been locking up everytime I go out to eat and I always feel uneasy leaving a special prize for a car thief. Thanks for the replies guys, I'll do some research and make sure I understand the law.
     
  7. Orkinman

    Orkinman

    212
    0
    Jan 10, 2008
    Northern VA
    I'm all for OCing in a restaurant but the real problem here is what your friend did.

    Friends don't let friends prance anywhere.
     
  8. Spike32

    Spike32

    831
    0
    Jul 11, 2008
    SEVA
    I OC'd for the first time this week in Hampton. No issues.

    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1593833729 1073750107 16 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> G32 G33<o:p></o:p>
    NRA LIFE & VCDL<o:p></o:p>
    SUB CLUB #78
    TOP GUN 357SIG CLUB #78
    GLOCKERS OF THE OLD DOMINION #78
     
  9. RacingGLOCK35

    RacingGLOCK35 Iceman Killeth

    704
    0
    Apr 9, 2007
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    I open carry every time i go out. Fobus paddle holster, g17, life is good....
     
  10. Dean

    Dean

    2,393
    0
    Nov 4, 2006
    Is this something that you should be doing?
    Really? :drillsgt:
     
  11. RacingGLOCK35

    RacingGLOCK35 Iceman Killeth

    704
    0
    Apr 9, 2007
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    Why not?
     
  12. Gregw/aGlock

    Gregw/aGlock NRA Member

    275
    0
    Jan 18, 2005
    Virginia Beach
    Yeah, Dean, why not? Are you implying we should disarm and leave our guns in the car everytime we enter a restaurant (note that VA doesn't have "bars")?? I eat out about every night. I'm not leaving my gun at home or in my car, so I have no other option.
     
  13. RacingGLOCK35

    RacingGLOCK35 Iceman Killeth

    704
    0
    Apr 9, 2007
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    what he said...
     
  14. RandySmith

    RandySmith

    852
    0
    Mar 1, 2001
    Staunton, Va.
    There's no requirement that you patron a place that serves alcohol. To say that you have no other options is really not true. You do not have to be there.

    The problem is that you can be disarmed before you know what hit you. I teach both retention and disarming techniques and believe me, getting a gun away from someone is very easy.

    The retention type holsters simply buy you a little time, provided the person attempting to take your gun doesn't know how to operate them. If he/she does, they can get your gun out as effortlessly as you can.

    I know, the counter opinion is to maintain situational awareness and, to an extent you're right. However, there are times and places where you can be situationally aware and still have too many people inside of your reactionary gap to effectively watch them all. Think: a crowded elevator, standing in line at your favorite fast food place, walking down a crowded sidewalk, attending a city council meeting, etc... You be can be situationally aware and still someone can very easily snatch your gun before you can react.

    One of the things I do when in public is watch people. I don't mean just a condition yellow or relaxed alert, I mean I watch people. I look for weakness, inattention, or other signs of vulnerability. Don't misunderstand, I would never act out in a criminal manner, I just find that the things learned by watching people are excellent teaching points for students in our classes. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen someone open carrying and paying absolutely no attention at all to their gun, the people well within their reactionary gap, or the world around them in general. When I see that, I think to myself about how many opportunities I (or someone else) would have to take their gun.

    As an example of just how little attention people pay to their environment, I have several pictures that were taken with the camera in my cell phone showing my hand just above the grip of a unconcealed and holstered handgun. Now, if I can get close enough and have sufficient time to take a picture of that, how easy would it be for me (or someone with a real intent) to snatch your gun? BTW, these pictures were taken at a city council meeting where a number of people who were open carrying were paying a lot more attention to the person making a presentation than they were me. I show these pictures in my classes as an example of how easy it is to get "caught up in the moment" and not pay attention to the people around you and especially to what they are doing.

    It is fortunate that there aren't that many criminals for people who open carry are usually making themselves very easy targets and do not even realize it.

    If you are going to open carry, at least get a decent holster with a retention device and learn how to use it. To be successful, this method still relies on a certain ineptitude in the attacker's ability but it is better than the alternative.

    Be aware that holsters can fail. This video serves as an example of just how easy it is to break a holster.

    Randy
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2008
  15. TheEggman

    TheEggman ( Classified )

    560
    2
    Apr 13, 2002
    Stafford County, VA
    Agree 100% on the Retention Holster, however, as to the wisdom/tactical advantage/disadvantage of open vs. concealed carry, there are equal arguments on both sides.

    What I look at rather than arguments, opinions and hypotheticals are actual happenings.

    I don't see that loss of weapon, or 'being the first person targeted' is happening anywhere. I'm certain that if this was a 'real-world' rather than hypothetical problem that the media would be all over it.

    While I usually prefer to carry concealed, I can see no demonstrated disadvantage in OC.

    If there is, however, the Virginia 'Restaurant Ban' carries it to the absurd.

    Here's a law that requires a person to expose their defensive sidearm to full public view if they enter a place where OTHER people may be drinking, or even drunk. Of ALL places where logic and common sense (hypothetical or not) dictates that hidden would be better, this would be the place.

    Best,
     
  16. RandySmith

    RandySmith

    852
    0
    Mar 1, 2001
    Staunton, Va.
    I agree that these attacks aren't happing to citizens who are carrying openly, thus the comment about it being fortunate that there aren't that many criminals. I just want people to understand how easy it is to have someone else take your gun from you when carrying in that fashion. An ounce of prevention...

    Successful gun grabs do happen all too often with LE though and they (usually) have had some kind of weapon retention training.

    The law is such that you may not enter an establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption while carrying a concealed firearm. I think we both understand the wording of that. My point here is simply that the law does not require that you enter such a place. Since there's no legal requirement for you to be there, stating that one must open carry their firearm because the "law says so" strikes me as being a little intentionally misleading.

    I would really like to see this code section repealed. It serves no good whatsoever.

    Randy
     
  17. Dean

    Dean

    2,393
    0
    Nov 4, 2006
    Stay out of bars.
    Trouble starts in bars because people are drinking in there.
    All cops should avoid bars. Especially for drinking.
    Never be in public with alcohol on your breath with a gun on you.
    Buy your steaks in bulk at the meat market and eat at home.
    It's less trouble. That's why. And NO, don't leave your gun in your car. It won't be there when you get back. You want that onion thing, don't you? You can make a Bloomin' Onion at home.
    'you wanna know how to make it, don't you?

    http://www.recipetrove.com/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,122/Itemid,26/
    Now you can stay home. The beer's colder at home. Get a big TV and buy the Cowboy's sports package. :drillsgt:
     
  18. RacingGLOCK35

    RacingGLOCK35 Iceman Killeth

    704
    0
    Apr 9, 2007
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    P.S. there are no bars in V.a. , bloomin onions are better at outback, and i wont get the cowboys package....at the moment they are getting spanked by the GIANTS!!! :rofl:
     
  19. frank4570

    frank4570

    15,508
    7
    Jun 25, 2004
    The thing I wonder about most is this. When the sheep see the gun does it cause them to grow less concerned about them or does it scare them into supporting gun control. I would HOPE that as they see people carrying guns and a lack of gunfights that they would be less concerned about guns.
    But what I want and how things SHOULD be are not always the way things are.
    I just want what is best for the cause of 2nd amendment rights.

    BTW I have open carried at restaurants once or twice, nobody paid much attention.
     
  20. RacingGLOCK35

    RacingGLOCK35 Iceman Killeth

    704
    0
    Apr 9, 2007
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    Not many people do notice. And actually alot of people approach me and say "Excuse me , officer i have a question" I am LE , but do they know that...No. Could be because i look like i just got out of the Marines...maybe. There is nothing wrong with open carry in a state that is used to it. Plus.... A right not used is no right at all......