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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by RMTactical, Jun 9, 2005.
No handgun round will give you a 4" permanent wound channel.
Interesting thought. If you can't incapcitate him by the trauma of impact, you can demoralize him to the point where he has no will to live. ;g
Pecker shot = real trauma
Hmm, maybe an M79 40mm with a pistol grip and a lead hollow point slug? ;P
I wouldn't want to fire it either!
A cop from the Philippines (where I came from) told me that a person can still kill you within eight seconds even after he has been shot with non-survivable wounds. I wouldn't believe him at first, but after reading some posts, what he told me makes sense after all.
We got some training from an Israeli who came to the Philippines sometime in the late 80's. He was very good with the Browning Hi-Power. He told us to use the "body, body, head" technique. He told us a shot in the head is an insurance in case the perpetrator: 1) is using body armor; and 2) wasn't stopped by the two shots to the torso.
It really depends on what ammo are you using for a certain caliber. A .45 ACP 230 gr Hydra Shok has had an impressive record. A 9mm 115 gr Cor-Bon is also good. 38 Super 115 gr Silvertips and Cor-Bons hold their own records as well. I wonder why people have "forgotten" the 38 Super. My friend used to hunt Philippine Deer with this caliber, and he told me he had better results with 38 Supers than with the .45 ACP. He further added that deer shot with a 38 Super FMJ almost always collapsed where it stood. Those shot with a .45 ACP FMJ still ran about 50 meters before collapsing.
Another friend's business was robbed by 5 people, all carrying .45 1911s sometime 2003. His brother-in-law was the manager of the business. His brother-in-law shot one of the robbers with a Beretta 22 pistol loaded with 22 lr Stinger on the chest. The robber was immediately incapacitated and died about 1 hour later in the hospital. Several employees of the business were injured after the robbers shot them.
Sorry, I have no experience with .40 S&W.
Not true. I saw a guy get shot in the pelvis area w/ a short barrel 16 ga shotgun w/ a slug at short range and the guy did not go down. He ran around screaming that his guts were on fire. The gun shot actually blow off his ***** and both testicles! He lived through the ordeal somehow and carried his guts around in a bag for 2 years.
P.S. Buy products that are made in the USA by US citizens.
Not trying to be a physics geek here but Newton's laws do allow for a small body in motion to knock down a larger object it hits, even if an equally sized object that was free to topple over (but didn't) was holding the "particle projector" that imparted the motion to the projectile. The key is the time it takes the projectile to "dump" (transfer) its energy to the target (described in physics by the term "impulse")in a collision. The other thing that influences this is the "hardness" of the projectile and the target (coefficient of restitution). Intuitively this makes sense with the example of catching a fast moving ball. If we catch the ball by moving it back while we catch it (increasing the "catching time") the force we feel will be less than if we catch it with a stiff hand(stings like hell!). This is the same thing that lets a martial artist break bricks with his bare hand, even though a man can lift much less weight on a bench press than it would take to collapse a brick designed to hold the weight of buildings.
So all you need to do is shoot a guy holding a thick glass block (glass has a very high "coefficient of restitution") up snuggly to his forehead with a large caliber wadcutter made of hardened steel to knock him down. Otherwise it is not likely.
All published stuff is bull-listics! Everyone Dirty Harry shot was blown over, knocked clean thru the window, etc. What better proof do we need??;i^b;9;K
I agree! What's with all the people disputing it like there's a hidden agenda behind the simple statistics.
This the internet ol' son,
EVERYTHING on here is part of a
"hidden agenda"! ;R ;R ;R
I'm asking myself "is he joking or is he a little strange?"
You're right I am!
I prefer to keep things simple and aim for the triangle area between both nipples and the base of the throat - firing until the BG is on the ground and then ready to get some more lead out.
Long live the 9mm with Ranger T's in 147-gr. (RA9T).
sorry searcher, but your theory is wrong ~1. You can test it yourself by shooting a 5 gallon bucket full of sand. What's it wiegh, 60-70#. Shoot it w/ any handgun round you want & it will NOT be pushed over. The instant collapse you see in men & animls after being hit is either surprise reaction or neurological failure. No such thing as "energy dump", sorry man.
Amen, brother, keep preaching till the lost hear the message!
A recent Mythbusters had them shooting sides of beef. No tangible movement. Hand gun energy dump is a myth. Penetration, big enough holes in the right places is what counts.
Actually, the theory is right. It just doesn't lead to a "knockdown effect" in this case because the "collision" is between a bullet and a soft target. It is a little more apparent in the sport of silhouette shooting where large steel plate animals are knocked over by bullets. In fact, Newton's famous 2nd law commonly stated as "Net Force = mass x acceleration" was originally stated by Newton as "Net Force = (mass x change in velocity) / time" in the special case where the mass is a constant, as in a moving bullet. The term in parentheses is called "impulse" in physics. In words it says that "resultant force equals the time rate of change of momentum." As the time of the interaction approaches zero the force approaches infinity. In other words, the faster the momentum changes, the greater the force.
Another example is the difference in the "kick" felt when you shoot a +p+ round versus a standard pressure round of the same bullet weight out of the same gun. The bullet in the +p+ round gets to any given velocity in less time than the standard velocity round while travelling down the barrel . Same change in momentum in less time yields more felt "kick" or force. Newton's 3rd law about equal and opposite reactions doesn't really explain anything about what happens when the bullet hits the target. The fact that the gun doesn't knock you over doesn't mean diddly. What happens when the bullet is in the barrel and when it hits the target are completely separate events. His second law tells the story, especially in the form he originally used. Sorry to get so technical. The point of my post was to say that even though "knock-down force" from a handgun used for self defense is theoretically possible it can't happen in practice. A reference for the theory is Engineering Mechanics Volume 2: Dynamics fourth edition by J.L. Meriam pages 191-192.
You know I could never see the logic of one professional trainer who shall remain nameless would say something like this. Double tap the chest, lower weapon to 45 degrees to access effect, if necessary go for a head shot. why in the hell would you stop "AND LOWER YOUR WEAPON to 45 degrees" to access effect if the son of a gun is still standing? Shoot the bastard as your moving for cover until he drops! Of course you need as much as possible to also be checking for other possible assailants. But for God's sake take care of the immediate one!
In the 5-6 times I've had to draw a weapon on another human being (thank God they quit at the sight of the weapon) I was not thinking about a double tap or whatever. If I had to shoot I was going to shoot until he went down or slide lock! And sometimes they can go down and get right back up. So even ater they go down stay behind cover till your sure they are out of the fight for good.
I don't know about lowering the weapon but if the first two rounds don't work then the head is a good place to go or the pelvis if the head is not able to be hit.
Well...I will offer only this.
As a Handgun hunter, I live by the oneshot-one kill rule. For many reasons. I have attained the ability to maximize its effect when filling my freezer. Nowadays, a box of ammo tends to last two seasons.
All I can say is that the princples that I follow and htose followed by my father and gradnfather before I, bring forth a shot that always anchors the animal and dropps into tis own hoofsteps.
Now , can this be applied to the defensive scenario. Yes. The basic principles of terminal ballistics still apply, though some of the surrounding stipulations have changed. If in a defensive situation a bullet from a handgun can bring a man down in one shot. Everything else is an assessment of environmental factors with regards to the dynamics of the shooting/Attack.
If one is a good enough chess player, and is able to work those conditions in his favor. He can have his one shot kill, and he can have it almost everytime.
FOlks speak of the reassurance of the douple tap. all of which is valid. However some folks prefer the reassurance of still having ammo left to take on the guy behind you with the crowbar.
Even in the unlikely scenario of having to deal with multiple attackers in your home, it is still to ones advantage to be able to incapacitate and kill with one shot.
Aside from all this, most importantly one must understand what body targets give him that one shot kill. Then must determine if the ammo being used has the terminal performance to strike those targets effecftively.
(Im not sure who came up with it, but one shot kill by shooting any part of the torso is a load of garbage and a gross misinterpretation of the facts.)
For starters, if your choice of ammo cannot maintain a relatively striaght path while traveling through the human body. Best to stick with a double tap
DOnt let your double taps get more than 3 inches apart.
A high level of tissue distruction is the way to go, but mroe importantly it is distruction of the correct tissues.
All of you who choose to own a gun for defensive reasons need to be well versed in basic human anatomy. Just as I need to be educated in basic deer and Elk anatomy.
LAstly is the issue of stress. Stress management comes with proper training. There are those out there who have brought down charging Hippos and Rhinos with one shot. Im pretty sure the stress level of a raging Hippo is a bit moreso than from that of raging crackhead.
All I will say, if you train properly. It will work for you.
besides, lack of stress management will also have neegaive effects on the double tap. High Stress is not overcome by shooting techniques. Be professional and try not to oet your douple tap turn into "Spray and Pray"
The effectiveness Both one shot, and double taps are a function of terminal ballistics and shot placement. From there, must learn to control the surrounding factors that interfere with your shot placement.
One can train successfully to quick draw and fire into that sweet spot every time.
as far as the gun is concerned, you will need a weapn that can put the bullet into a <a *******'text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=tennis%20ball" ***********="window.status='tennis ball'; return true;" **********="window.status=''; return true;">tennis ball</a> size target within the distance of an average room - everytime. If you cannot do this, then perhaps your double tap is preferred.
In conclusion....The single shot kill in a defensive scenario is much more difficult to attain than killing someone with multiple shots. However is is an ability that offers the shooter so many more advantages and brings the individual shooter into a higher level of firearm proficiency and marksmanship.
To comment on other training standards.
CENTER of MASS
Trying to hit center mass is not condusive to killing quickly, nor is it comndusive to even good shot placement. Keep in mind that your targets are about the size of your fist and smaller.
Aim Small - Miss small.
When aiming, do so quickly yet smoothly. Do not be hurried or spastic. Stress managemnt will come from time management. The more fractions of a second you can save by eliminating needless movements, the better your shot placement will be.
Lastly, that sweet spot is not exactly Center of Mass, expect it to be to one side or another.