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One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by RMTactical, Jun 9, 2005.

  1. V Creed

    V Creed Been there!

    Feb 25, 2004
    The Rockies
    I've been astounded at the number of folks on GT who haven't been able to figure this out. How much simpler can it get? ^2
  2. V Creed

    V Creed Been there!

    Feb 25, 2004
    The Rockies
    I found this statistic interesting: "Sixty-two of the perpetrators committed suicide after killing the officer." ;f

  3. jbrown50


    Sep 19, 2004
    Virginia, USA

  4. cheygriz

    cheygriz Venerable Elder

    Apr 2, 2000
    High up in the rockies
    Or perhap we should all believe the sweet natured, mild mannered and ultimately believable Marty Fackler. After all, being a medical doctor automatically makes him an expert on ballistics, doesn't it?

    Now here's a novel idea! Let's all completely believe and trust little old Jeffie Cooper and do away with all weapons except 1911s, and all ammo except hardball! After all, anyone that has read Jeffie knows that you can hit an elephant in the tail with .45 hardball and put him orbit. As long as the bullet was launched from a 1911, that is!;f
  5. 30roundmusket

    30roundmusket US Army Vet.

    I was told only 1 shot per second. I asked, what if the badguy is shooting at me faster than 1 round per second?

    I don't go to that range anymore.:(
  6. ronim


    Jun 29, 2005
    plain and simple, if you want to knock the target down, you want a large slow moving bullet. You want to penetrate, you use a faster moving round.
    The .45 govt. was put into use because the army found the .38 cal pistols they were using, did not work well against drugged up fighters in the Phillipines.
    There is a reason the army and other people are going back to the .45 govt. slow, big bullets knock down, getting that same sized round in the hottest speed you can find causes you to loose the knock down effect.
    I shoot 9mm at work and at home. It is a nice round to train with, but I would never depend on it in combat. 15 rounds in 9mm is not worth 7 in the old govt models.

    This is only my personnel opinion, I do like the .40 as well. But for knock down, I go with 110 gr Semi Jacketed HP .45 Govt. I am sure there is even some slower moving rounds that would do even a better job of knock down. That is what I use after 20 years of shooting 9mm and .45 for comps, and now the Army.

    I believe after a person is knocked down, their brains have more than enough time to process the pain and damage that was involved in that act that put them down.

    thanks for the great reads on this thread
  7. turbonatr

    turbonatr Senior Member Millennium Member

    Jul 4, 1999
    N.E., PA
    The point of the linked article was that handgun cartridges as a whole suck at stopping people, .45acp included. One excerpt of the article is...

    You say you would not depend on a 9mm in combat. With all due respect, no handgun cartridge should be trusted in combat. That's why soldiers are issued rifles (you know, firearms that shoot high-velocity projectiles;)) as their primary weapons, not handguns.
  8. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    Feb 6, 2000

    HA HA HA HA HA;z ;z ;z

    You actually believe a pistol of any caliber will knock a man down. You must of missed some of neutons basic laws. For example every action has an equal and opposite reaction. No pistol round will knock a man down or even make him shudder. Knockdown power is a myth.
  9. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Apr 30, 2005
    The incalculable factor in "stopping power" is the determination of your attacker. determined attackers fueled by rage, will power and or drugs are extremely difficult to stop. they can take non survivable wounds and still continue to effectively fight until they die. a good example is Platt in the FBI-miami shootout he took serious and non survivable wounds and was literally a dead man walking when he went on to kill two agents and severely wound 3 or 4 more.
  10. Sky Pirate 7

    Sky Pirate 7

    Mar 1, 2005

    So true.

    Another thing I found interesting is that far more police officers have been killed with 9mm than any other caliber (the 2nd most "cop-killing" caliber was .38 special). I think this is mainly due to the availability of 9mm and .38 special handguns, though another factor to consider is that both of those handguns typically have low recoil (allowing faster and more accurate follow up shots) and 9mm handguns usually have very high capacities.

    Finally, did you notice that half of all cops killed were wearing body armor??? That leads me to believe that a lot of cops were killed by headshots.
  11. shepsan


    Feb 27, 2003
    I have read many conflicting theories about the subject of ammunition stopping power. What is real stopping power? Is it caliber or is it velocity? Are expanding bullets better than ball to stop and attacker? Which brand is best?

    There seems to be as many answers to these questions as there are writers addressing the subject. After reading Dave Spaulding’s article in the August/September 2005 issue of HANGUNS, I find that his comments answer most of these questions to my satisfaction.

    Besides providing anecdotal evidence on the subject, Mr. Spaulding discusses specific brands, types and calibers of ammunition. It is however, Mr. Spaulding’s own theories that I found to be most valuable.

    “Stopping power really does not exist. What we are looking to achieve is incapacitation.” In other words, “we know that any firearm can cause death by damaging vital organs in the body. However, death does not always result in instant incapacitation.”

    “The handgun incapacitation problem or lack thereof, is not an ammo problem at all; it’s a training problem. Let’s use common sense and take a look at the topic of handgun incapacitation. Is a large bullet better than a small bullet? To think otherwise would be silly. A larger-diameter bullet will strike more tissue, which will result in a larger would.”

    “By delivering two bullets about four inches apart, the chance of hitting a vital area is enhanced. Naturally, more shots would be even better.”

    Mr. Spaulding quotes Dr. Vincent DiMaio, “a famed medical examiner.” Dr. DiMaio:”incapacitation was a direct result of where you shoot the suspect and how many times you can shoot him.”

    It seems to me from reading the reference articles, that regardless of the caliber, velocity or type of bullet that one loads, the best way to incapacitate or if you prefer, stop an attacker, is to put numerous quick hits on the center mass of a person. In any event, expending a complete magazine is far safer than expecting that one great shot to down the adversary.
  12. ronim


    Jun 29, 2005
    I agree, my primary being 5.56 but, as a back up that may result in me living or not. I say .45 any day over 9mm. 2 .45 govt to the chest or head of body armor is worn will do the trick. Or yes you can empty the mag of the 9mm. Either way, I want to get back to my primary as quickly as possible. So yes, a rifle round is always better.
    I do not know if this is true or not, but I did read in an article how the .22 cal had killed more people other than military actions. So good aim should be and is the best thing for a knock down. Good controlled group to vitals seems to be the best answer for knock down.

    Remember the Army went to 9mm to make NATO happy. The Army went to the berretta to make Italy happy. Not because of ballistics or quality of the weapon. Now the Army has gone back to .45 Govt in some Units for the secondary weapon.
  13. fredj338


    Dec 22, 2004
    The validity of the "One shot stop" has been thrown around since the study was done. You can't really argue the results. The results are what they are, but it is to be taken as is, not a definetive study saying if you use brand 'A' it WILL stop an attacker 91.2% of the time. There are many, many stories about good guys, bad guys, soldiers & civilians taking massive damage to the torso & surving to fight on, sometimes even to live through it.
    Probably better than shooting jello blocks or using some formula to give a shooter an idea of what works better, and some rounds/bullets do work better than others. The studies are real world shootings, take the results for what they are worth. Bottom line is no handgun round can be determined to stop an attacker reliably w/ one shot, so as said before, shoot until your target is down.
  14. I read where the officer shot the offender in the chest four times, and the offender kept coming at him with a knife.

    If I were confronted with an offender carrying a contact weapon, I'm going to aim at his pecker. One shot to the pelvis and he's down. It would be mechanically impossible to stand, nomatter what the offender is snorting or smoking.
  15. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

    Feb 6, 2000
    The pelvic shot is not as easy as one would assume its harder than a head shot. Also most handgun rounds lack sufficient momentium and energy to break the pelvis.
  16. Ron3


    Sep 6, 2001
    "One shot to the pelvis and he's down."

    Pretty dangerous belief, man.

    We should all beware the absolute thoughts. (I.e. If I do "A", bad guy WILL do "B")

  17. Bones like the pelvis are quite flexible too.
    It's a lot more likely you'll just make a hole in it,
    than shatter it like it were a piece of glass.

    Ideally you would like to take out the hip-joint,
    so the attacker would be unable to stand.
    Unfortunately though it's a lot easier said than done.
    Most attackers won't just stand there
    and let you take perfect aim on them.

    With the use of body armor becoming more common,
    it's not a bad idea to consider shots other than COM.
  18. RMTactical

    RMTactical CLM

    Oct 7, 2000
    Behind an AR-15
    True. My mom is an ER nurse and she said that most of the gunshot wounds she has seen in that area of the body, the bullet will deflect and change course... sometimes to the victims detriment, sometimes not...

    She also mentioned that most gunshot victims DO have multiple wounds and that surviving is rather easy as long as the bullets did not hit critical areas, also a factor is the speed of treatment for the wounds. Many people walk out of the hospital after having been shot. They can be easy to survive.

    I found it interesting that sometimes they leave the bullets in the victims. Strange, since you would think the lead in the bullet would be toxic...

    Anyway, something to think about...

    I think COM is where it's at. That or, if you can do head shots.
  19. Turk40SW


    Nov 14, 2004
    Houston, Tx
    Stopping power can be looked at in two ways from my point of view.

    1. Stopping a threat, not caring if they live or die just stopping the threat.
    2. Time to ceasation of brain function.

    Personally, I could care less how long it takes for the brain to stop functioning. I want as much impact/trauma as possible. IMHO Hit the fastest, hardest, with the heaviest bullet that has the most expansion, without over-penetrating. And keep hitting them till the threat is over. Then remain prepared to do it again.

    I want a devastating 4 inch diameter wound channel and a doubling in size of the round. 12-13" penetration.

    Doubletap .40 155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
    Doubletap 10mm 155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
  20. CAcop


    Jul 21, 2002
    I got a question: Which is better 9mm or .45ACP?