One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by RMTactical, Jun 9, 2005.


  1. Some of what the anesthesiologist covered was good material. It is a good indicator of what he has seen in the Operating Room.

    Observations in the O.R. are not a good indicator of how the person who was shot reacted at the shooting scene.

    Example: I have attended quite a few autopsies and can tell you what kind of tissue damage I saw as a result of a gun shot wound. I cannot tell you how quickly a person was incapacitated without interviewing witnesses at the scene of the shooting.
     

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  2. mike0262p

    mike0262p Spider

    297
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    I don't know if this was brought up earlier. Back in the day, it's been awhile since I was in law enforcement, in the late 70's early 80's there were seminars called "Street Survival" put on by a gentleman who wrote the book of the same name. There was a picture of a bad guy shot 39 times by a 9mm, it was determined that the last two rounds were finally the fatal rounds. We were taught double tap to the chest and if the bad guy was still coming at you put one in the head. I have to agree that adrenaline and/or people hopped up on drugs makes it a whole new world out there.
     

    #482 mike0262p, Sep 9, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  3. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

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    If I ever have to shoot someone, I'll aim for the brain or CNS.
     
  4. That should be easy as they are moving, which they are almost guaranteed to be doing. :upeyes:
     
  5. Unless you're a crack shot under extreme duress (like, say, Seal Team Six members) you'd be better off aiming for the thoracic cavity or (secondarily) the pelvic area for stopping the deadly threat.

    From the little I know about these things the COM shot has the best chance of quickly neutralizing a threat whereas the pelvic shot can prevent BG movement and also includes major arteries/nerve systems that can incapacitate the threat through massive blood loss and/or severe pain.
     
    #485 unit1069, Sep 18, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  6. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    I have posted, a couple of times, the accoiunt of a case I was involved in: the short story is, guy with a knife is confronted by 3 police officers with guns pointed, maintaining a 21 foot distance, per their training. 2 had 10mm and 1 had .40 S&W. When he decided to quit negotiating and charged, they fired while backing away and hiot him with 8 of 10 shots, which was extraordinary enough (the "crack shots" unit1069 mentioned), but 2 of the shots him him between the eyes and in the forehead. He still passed the line where they were standing when he charged, before he went down.

    Another, Rodney Abernathy, in Louisville, KY, was hit 14 times, including bullets through bones and through his pelvic bone. He was finally killed with a head shot, after getting back up again.
     
    #486 Bren, Sep 18, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  7. This might have been brought up by others...

    But these days the .410 can be counted as a handgun round (that started out as a shotgun round).

    I'm not going to go on record as saying that a 2-1/2 inch '000' buck load would stop someone with one round.

    But two shots with 3-4 pellets per trigger pull should have more of a effect than single projectiles.
     

  8. Yet ANOTHER reason "limited penetration" is a sucker play! bullets that "over" penetrate a human torso have a MUCH better chance of snicking SOMETHING along the spinal column than big blobs puttering along slow enough to be snagged with a catcher's mitt.
    The .45 ACP SUCKS for penetration...this is based on what the REAL world proves not armchair discourse. The .40 is certainly far, FAR better, and the 9mm is wonderful for punching holes clean through as long as its ballistic potential is not limited by thinly jacketed, soft-lead core spuds!
     
  9. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

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    I don't expect my 9mm 115gr JHP +p+ load to do much to a perp's pelvis. I will shoot for the chest and head.
     
  10. Let her sing till the slide locks back....repeat
     
  11. Take a 230gr hollow point to the chest and tell me how much it sucks. :rofl:
     
  12. 1.) Most important factor in "stoping power" is SHOT PLACEMENT.
    2.) There is virtually no measurable difference in "stoping power" between any major handgun caliber. All top tier defense loads produce the same relative damage to bodily structures. All the medical experts and trauma surgeons will attest to this.
    3.) 9mm with a proven JHP is probably the most practical round for CCW/defensive handgun use, as you can get more lead on target faster, with better followup shot capability in less time, than you can using .45 ACP/.40/.357 SIG, etc. The additional increase of ammunition on tap in the mag, is a nice bonus!
    4.) COM is a crapshoot and with the increased use of body armor used by perps, is less effective, unless striking the spinal column on a frontal shot or hitting the heart, etc. Put your rounds in the targets shoulder and pelvic girdle repeatedly, until your slide locks back or the target is down and ceases hostility. If you can make a CNS shot, take it.
    5.) Kinetic energy and hydrostatic shock is BS. Temporary cavity is BS. The only thing you can count on ballisticily is perforating and destroying important vital structures of the body to end a threat. Caliber is meaningless, if you aren't hitting said vital structures.
    6.) The only thing .40 and .45 have over 9mm, is increase in training costs, carry weight and recoil. One caveat, if limited to FMJ only, I do prefer the bigger .45 230 grain ball or the meplat flat nose .40. I got 500rds of 124 grain 9mm Goldot JHP, so that's what I'm sticking with- in a Gen 3 Glock 19 in nickel boron btw.
     
  13. 1. I don't think you'll find many who will dispute shot placement is paramount in stopping a threat.

    2.
    I really don't know what the term "relative damage" means when some calibers demonstrably produce greater total injury for a given shot, and I doubt all medical experts unanimously agree on anything.

    3. The 9mm appears to be the most popular duty caliber for self-defense, but I can put .357sig rounds just as fast and accurately into targets as I do with my 9mm, after learning that every system has its own rhythm, for want of a better term. The .45ACPs I've shot seem only slightly more difficult. I was surprised learning that many champion shooters won their competitions shooting .40S&W since that's been the hardest caliber for me to control.

    4. Even a novice like me knows not to aim for the shoulder instead of COM. I might only have the opportunity to put a single round on target before stopping the threat, and aiming for a peripheral area is truly a crap shoot, as you put it.

    5.
    Ergo, why on earth would one aim at peripheral areas?

    6. I think you've got a great gun/ammo combination and since you've thoroughly put that system through the proper testing who is anyone to dispute your choice? I certainly won't.
     
  14. BBMW

    420
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    While true, it's probably this is VERY difficult to control in a dynamic gunfight, as the perp is not likely going to just stand there and let you take a carefully aim shot. Almost by definition, if you're involved in a self defense shooting, your target is actively attacking you, or someone else in close proximity to you. This is not going to make it easy to get precise shots. This is especially true for civilians who don't get the more advanced training that LEOs (well, at least some LEOs) get.
    I've seen posts by people directly refuting this. There was a post by a coroner that went around a few years ago that specifically contradicted this.
    While I don't have a problem with 9mm as a self defense cartridge, I think .40 and .45 have better combinations of penetration and expansion. It's that combination that establishes the incapacitation capability of the round. Round for round .45 has the best combination, but .40 gives a better ammo capacity for the same size gun, while still having a significant advantage in expansion and penetration over 9mm. So that's my preference.
    The COM has the highest concentration of vital structures over the largest target. I would never trust a shoulder or pelvic shot to stop an attacker. A good solid head shot should, but that can be very difficult to make
    Agreed at handgun velocities
    Somewhat agreed, but a larger caliber = larger expanded diameter = larger chance of cutting something vital
    I think that's an assumption on your part, and has never been proven.
     
  15. 9mm carrier defends 9mm as equal to everything else. Who woulda thunk it?
     
  16. :rofl: TRUE Brother!!!!
     
  17. Some of you have refuted my points, allow me to elaborate. This article addresses why the pelvic and shoulder girdle is more effective than traditional COM shots, at least in terms of a Military context.

    http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2011/09/12/delta-force-and-the-glock/

    Also, top tier defensive JHP ammo, 9mm, .40, .45, all have similar expansion reliability in tissue medium and the overall difference in expansion is negligible. I will admit here, that in favor of the .40, most if not all factory ammo is loaded hot with good results on target, albeit with a sharper recoil impulse, and slower split times, period. 9mm is more load specific, in that to compete with it's bigger cousins, it needs to be loaded in a +p+ format with a proven JHP. I don't care if your a surgeon and a split time master with a .357 SIG or a .45, you will always be faster, more accurate and put more lead on target with more capacity with the least recoil, with a 9mm.

    Logically, albeit you have to use the best loads, the 9mm is superior to the other common autoloader handgun rounds for defensive use and ultimately, war. The .45 FMJ has negligibly more "stopping power" than 9mm FMJ, and both are poor performers. The .45 JHP has marginally better expansion and more mass on target, but at the expense of single stack 6-8 rd platforms, or larger and harder to conceal double stack designs. The .40 is a bastardized design by smith and wesson, in an attempt to solve a problem that never was. More recoil than 9mm and .45 ACP, with less stopping power than the big bore, and less capacity than 9mm. 1mm more diameter and a small increase in crushed tissue is not worth the increase in training costs, and longer time for follow up shots.

    I do love that .45 ACP though, for two reasons, nostalgia and suppressed use with a can. Also, like .40, the .45 ACP isn't really load specific, and while the FMJ 230 grain ball only has a small increase in terminal performance over 9mm, in warfare, I'll take whatever I can get. As a civilian, with some of the best rounds in my mags that money can buy, the 9mm is superior in almost every single category vs it'd bigger cousins.
     
  18. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

    45,770
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    If you're in a real military war then why are you engaging in a firefight with a wimpy ass .45 pistol and not a rifle or machine gun?


    Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
     
  19. Shooting a threat who is down several more times is a good way to turn an obvious act of self defense in to a murder trial and quite easily a life behind bars. Or at least a lot closer to the poverty line than you would have been had you just carried enough gun to start with.
     

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