Okay, old news ... ?

Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by agtman, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. agtman

    agtman 10mm Spartiate

    ... or am I the only one who missed this? :dunno:

    Passing of Ronald A. Carrillo: http://www.bren-ten.com/website/

    According to the link, he was 55. Sad to discover, since I admired Carillo's 2005 book, "Bren Ten: The Heir Apparent."

    His contribution to clearing up the misunderstood and often misrepresented history of the Bren Ten pistol, the nature and extent of Jeff Cooper's involvement, and the early days of the 10mm cartridge itself was, and remains, substantial. His book is now the definitive reference work on these subjects. It is a must-read for anyone interested in this relatively small niche of firearms history.

    Apologies if Carrillo's passing is already old news to 10Ringers, as I've been absent from the 10mm-related boards for sometime.

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    #1 agtman, Jul 27, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  2. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    I heard of his passing on the BrenTen forum, yes very sad to pass at a young age. I did manage to get a copy of the "Bren Ten: The Heir Apparent" and it is a very nicely written book.

  3. That's sad. When I got my copy of the book, I got the impression that he mailed the book personally. It really is quite an impressive piece of work. he will be sorely missed.
  4. As a 10mm shooter I morn his passing. As a 10mm shooter I say thank you Sir!
  5. agtman

    agtman 10mm Spartiate

    Actually, he probably did.

    When I saw your post I went and thumbed through my book and found the hand-written receipt that came with it, dated "9/25/07," with "Thank you R.C." in neat cursive style penned toward the bottom.
  6. I'd not heard... thanks for passing the news to us here on the boards...
  7. Yup. Me too. It's an awesome book. .... upsetting news of his passing though ...
  8. Taterhead

    Taterhead Counting Beans

    Thanks for the update agtman. I am not familiar with the work of Mr. Carrillo, so I appreciate being informed on both of those matters.
  9. I'd like to read it. I love the Bren Ten. :cool:
  10. agtman

    agtman 10mm Spartiate

    Since his passing I have to assume the book has become "collectable," meaning there's a finite number, if any, still available (unsold or on the used market).

    Once that drys up, there won't be anymore unless his publisher, "Circle Ten Publishing LLC," has a monetary incentive to offer further copies. It's more likely that Carrillo was the sole member of that firm, essentially a self-publisher, and thus the chance that any future editions or copies will be seen died with him.

    Just my opinion, but it's definitely a book that every self-respecting 10mm fan should want to acquire, read several times over, dog-ear key pages for their substantive content, and savor for as long as you love and shoot this cartridge.

    Personally, I have a few "quibbles" with some of the content; I've always felt, as a former editor in another life, that the way Carrillo layed out the content could have benefited from a more stringent organizational approach; a professionally assembled index is sorely needed (to aid future researchers); and each chapter should have ended with a page (or pages) of indigenous footnotes.

    All that said, we must also understand that Carrillo - God bless him - when he undertook this project, was looking at a blank sheet of paper ... and absolutely no help. There was no one else interested in delving into the historical details of a long-dead handgun, produced by a failed company, that once chambered an arguably dying cartridge.

    From the transcripts of certain interviews in the book it is obvious that Carrillo had to pull teeth to obtain tangible and relevant (and often contradictory) statements from participants who - after what? 30+years? - are still reluctant to revisit old wounds by chatting with a guy holding a tape recorder, intending to write a book about what was, to them, still a sore subject. Think about what Carrillo had to go through just to get the book to first draft. (And I might add, without revealing too much detail, that some of these guys are still sniping at each other about what was said or done 30+years ago about the Bren Ten pistol).

    Viewed in that light, Carrillo's Bren Ten book is an unbelievably competent and single-handedly assembled milestone, the result of time-consuming research into the early days of the 10mm cartridge, and a testament to his detective-like efforts in obtaining detailed interviews with the key players associated with the Bren Ten pistol.

    Given that it took Carrillo 5 years to get the book researched, written and published, one only has to image how much time this absorbed out of his short life, away from his wife and kids. Would any of us make that sort of commitment to a similar project with the same sacrifice of time and no guarantee of success, and still produced something significant? :dunno:

    That last, by the way, is meant as a rhetorical question for the group, not to be preachy or accusatory, ... Just sayin'.

    #10 agtman, Jul 30, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015 at 9:28 AM
  11. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

    Thank you for posting this, agtman... i didn't know. Sad news. Btw, your last post is excellent. I need to get a copy of his book. More than likely whatever copies he still had are going to go quick, or will be packed up and forgotten by some uninterested person. Good reason to try to track down as many copies as possible right now.
  12. agtman

    agtman 10mm Spartiate

    Thanks, Tazz. I appreciate that you stickied it. And thanks for your comments, and to the other posters too.

    Well, whether he realized it or not (and my guess is he did), writing a book of this type made Carrillo himself an important player in the history of the 10mm AUTO - because a history of some event is what the historian tells us it is, having the benefit of a perspective gained from looking back over time. That's been true since the day Herodotus took his stylus to a parchment and wrote the first history of Greece. While the magnitude of Carrillo's achievement is certainly different, he was nonetheless a writer of history.

    According to the "author bio" page, for 17 of his 21 years in the Air Force, Carrillo held the post of Wing Historian, for which he "received several top military awards for his coverage of Air Force events." So the guy came to this project with credentials for writing accurately and in the necessary detail about the evolution of the cartridge, the gun, and the key people who made it happen.

    On a somewhat 10mm-related note, former FBI agent Urey Patrick testifies as an expert witness in criminal and civil cases involving disputes over the use of deadly force by LEOs, most typically by means of their duty pistol. He, along with John Hall, authored a very important book on the subject called, "In Defense of Self and Others," which I can highly recommend just because it's so well-written and thoroughly documented with discussions of the relevant judicial decisions (case law) on various issues. Any intelligent non-lawyer can understand and learn much from the many issues and points of law that Patrick covers.

    For those who haven't seen it, here's a pic of the 2d Edition of Patrick's book:


    Notice that smack-center on the cover is a S&W 1076, and it's my belief that the choice of that particular handgun as the centerpiece was not accidental. It's most likely Patrick's personal 1076, the one he carried and got to keep when he retired, which I understand was a benefit extended to retiring senior agents during that period. If it's not Patrick's, my second guess is that it's Hall's.

    Remember that it was Patrick and Hall who together resolved the internecine warfare that started at the FBI after the Miami Massacre in 1986 between the 9mm fans and the .45 fans. The 10mm showed up circa 1988 at FBI headquarters (in the platform of Hall's personally-owned Delta Elite) as an alternative to the other contending cartridges, and as they say, ... "the rest is history."

    Anyway, some years ago there was a post here on the 10-Ring, and on a few other boards too, about some of the "hidden history" of the 10mm in FBI service - real inside stuff - that could have only been known by one of these guys, now long retired.

    Just as Carrillo did with the Bren Ten, the information that this person supplied peeled back several more layers of history on the 10mm "onion." For example, if I recall correctly, the poster talked about how the model 1076 had evolved from a number of prototype model 1006s that were submitted for evaluation; how the field agents actually felt about the gun and the cartridge (overwhelmingly they liked it and didn't want to give it up); training issues with the 10mm even in its watered-down form, etc.

    Like I said, it was the sort of information that only a former insider would know.

    Bottom-line point: Tazz, if you can ever find that post, or a link to it somewhere on the net, I think it would be worth the historical interest to make it a sticky here for the group, especially for the newer fans of the 10mm.

    Just a suggestion. Thanks! :cool:
    #12 agtman, Aug 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015 at 9:33 PM
  13. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

    Great idea, agtman. I have no idea what terms to use to search for it, though. Maybe what we should also do is use this thread as a thread for the history of the 10mm, or something like that. But i think we should have a thread all about the history of the 10mm, for the record. (Sorry, my head's not real clear right now... i just found out about Sammy.)
  14. agtman

    agtman 10mm Spartiate

    Actually, you captured the idea better than I did.

    And since Carrillo was a historian, you're right, we should dedicate this or another thread that gets "stickied" to posts discussing historical facts, research, or discoveries pertaining to the 10mm cartridge, guns, ammo, etc.

    Ideally, such a thread would invite posts that are (1) relevant to historical aspects of the evolution of the cartridge and the firearms chambered for it or aspects of either that were previously unknown or little known, and (2) that reflect some minimum of credible, citation-supported research or tracable references, or that are authored by someone with personal knowledge of these sorts of topics that can be documented.

    I basically see this sort of thread as an opportunity for 10mm fans to moonlight as researchers. They could contribute what they find, small or large, to the benefit and education of the wider U.S. shooting community and - given that we live in the age of the internet - to the international shooting community as well. (Yeah there are 10mm fans outside the continental U.S.of A.)

  15. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

    There is a real need for this. I was in a discussion over on LinkedIn with a bunch of 'experts' (fairly clueless people) and (as usual) each one had to chime in on what the 'real' history was and how they were experts on the subject. I went looking for a website that had the actual history and everything i found was lacking. Somebody has tried to write up a history on the 10mm at Wikipedia... but is also quite lacking. Maybe what we should do is get in there and edit it with the facts. We could work on the history here together in The 10 Ring and then when we have our facts straight and clear, we can then go post it over on the Wiki page. Thoughts??
  16. I've always used the info at the following site as my reference. Whether its 100% correct or not is up for discussion.


    I agree, we need at least one place where ALL of the information is 100% fact-checked.

  17. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

    That's the site i use, also.
  18. Actually, this book took more like seven years to put together. I assisted Ron with much of the research during that time span. This included but was not limited to securing Marksman Special production and shipping information along with bankruptcy and litigation documentation. He was active duty Air Force throughout most of this, being stationed at Nellis AFB in Nevada. This made composing the text of the book an even more arduous exercise. It is true, however, that while Ron did the majority of the heavy lifting, he did have help from myself and a couple of others in both researching & collecting graphics and information content along with performing the nuts & bolts tasks of actually self-publishing and distributing this wonderful book.

    There were things Ron & I discussed and wanted to include in the book. Among these were accurate production numbers for all Bren Ten models, additional photos and graphics, etc.. We know who has the production number records but this individual would not provide us with this information for a number of reasons. Photos were deleted from the final printed book due to cost considerations. There was also discussion of a book signing to be conducted with Tom Dornaus at Bain & Davis Gun Shop in the Los Angeles area but we were never able to get all the planets to align for that event. We also spent a fair amount of time keeping the personal information of a number of parties under wraps. There is, to this day, more than a little animosity towards both Tom Dornaus and Mike Dixon. These people made a fairly concerted effort to maintain a low profile for fairly obvious reasons and it seemed that while Ron was working on the book, clues to their whereabouts were constantly popping up on the web. Although we never leaked this information, we promised people we would respect their privacy. Anything which would lead them to believe that we were the source of a leak would have turned off the information faucet permanently.

    My experience with Ron during the creation of the book was a wonderful experience. He was my friend and hardly a day goes buy that I don't think about him, his family or the project we worked on together.

    Tazz10m and _The_Shadow like this.
  19. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    Thanks for the info Bruce! Hope your birthday was a good one!
  20. agtman

    agtman 10mm Spartiate

    Bruce: thanks very much for your post.

    I admire Ron and what he tried to make the Bren Ten book to be. I also admire the effort that he and everyone connected with his project put into ultimately getting it published. As well, I appreciate your giving us this insight on your relationship with Ron while the book was making its way into print.

    Thanks again! :cool:
    _The_Shadow and Tazz10m like this.

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