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NYC 'Stop & Frisk'

Discussion in 'Political Issues' started by barbedwiresmile, May 12, 2012.

  1. Mrs. Tink

    Mrs. Tink Semper Fidelis

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    I see G19G20's point--people who are not familiar with "case law" or whatever else your hat is hung on are not going to know this out of the box. That said, although perhaps we ordinary people "don't have a clue", doesn't mean that we're "arrogant" about being "ignorant." I for one come on here because I like to learn new perspectives and information. I freely admit that I have no clue. I would rather appreciate being educated or being informed.

    I know that some folks on here choose not to speak to police as a general rule; I am not one. But when it comes to things like "stop & frisk" or whatever the seemingly-outrageous policy of the day is, it would be nice to hear about case law or other background information--even if some people are belligerent about challenging you LEOs on this, there are plenty of others who just want to know more. THEN we can all draw our own conclusions and discuss it.
     
  2. CAcop

    CAcop

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    To be honest we have beaten this horse until it is glue. That's why my first post was "Terry Stop. Google it."

    Unfortunately there are people on this board who hate government and all government employees. I don't know why and at this point don't care. I am not going to spend hours writing pages about Terry stops and all the associated case law. It is out there at their fingertips ready to be learned. Yet none of it will never be read because it is so much more fun to trash talk.

    There is ignorance due to lack of exposure and there is willfull ignorance due to arrogance.
     


  3. Mrs. Tink

    Mrs. Tink Semper Fidelis

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    I understand all of that. And I don't want you to spend "hours" explaining anything to anyone. I just think it would be helpful if people who know things can point people who don't know things in the right direction. We don't know what we don't know. Feel free to ignore those who aren't interested or just hate everyone.

    I am a federal employee so I get what you mean. :wavey:
     
  4. G19G20

    G19G20 Status Quo 2014

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    That's a diversionary tactic. The conduct described in the OP has nothing in common with a Terry Stop. Nothing at all. Did you even read the OP article? The NYPD is stopping people randomly (profiling) and then using it as an excuse for pat downs and searches. A Terry stop requires at least an initial reasonable suspicion of criminal involvement to initiate contact and the pat down becomes incidental to the stop. One is random, the other is targeted based on articulable facts. Guess which is which.

    Hmm...I googled "Terry Stop" as you requested and the first result is Wiki.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

    Here's the first section of the Fox News article in the OP:
    Nothing was found. Why? Because it was a purely random stop based on NO articulable facts other than Mr. Bilal, a black man carrying a bag, happened to be in the same area as a cop that had nothing better to do than to harrass a law abiding citizen doing his laundry.


    This is NOT A TERRY STOP. This is a fishing expedition based on intimidation and NYPD has made it policy.



    Im wondering who the one displaying willful ignorance is in this thread is.​


    Want to try again? It's no wonder people "hate" government employees. You're a poster child for why.​
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
  5. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    You get to be on the next episode of COPS.
     
  6. seanmac45

    seanmac45 CLM

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    Mrs. Tink Wrote; "I see G19G20's point--people who are not familiar with "case law" or whatever else your hat is hung on are not going to know this out of the box. That said, although perhaps we ordinary people "don't have a clue", doesn't mean that we're "arrogant" about being "ignorant." I for one come on here because I like to learn new perspectives and information. I freely admit that I have no clue. I would rather appreciate being educated or being informed.

    I know that some folks on here choose not to speak to police as a general rule; I am not one. But when it comes to things like "stop & frisk" or whatever the seemingly-outrageous policy of the day is, it would be nice to hear about case law or other background information--even if some people are belligerent about challenging you LEOs on this, there are plenty of others who just want to know more. THEN we can all draw our own conclusions and discuss it. "

    I have no problem with people who do not understand Terry Stops or the case law involved. It is my belief that I have taken considerable time in this thread to enlighten those with an open mind who wish to learn more about this topic.

    My comments, which you chose to take out of context, were directed at ONE poster in this thread who simply wants to stamp his feet and pout that such procedures are unfair. Sorry. But the adults in the fields of the courts and law enforcement have determined otherwise.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
  7. A judge has granted class action status to a lawsuit. The article says that the judge is highly critical of NYPD. This was last week, and I have not yet read that court document.

    Good on New Yorkers for standing up against government disdain of its citizenry.
     
  8. CAcop

    CAcop

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    From your own link:

    When a search for weapons is authorized, the procedure is known as a “stop and frisk”.
     
  9. G19G20

    G19G20 Status Quo 2014

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    And? Why don't you explain to us what that means? When is a "search" (your word) for weapons authorized? A pat down (not a search) is authorized for weapons IF the definition of a Terry stop is met. This is why it's established law man. People have a 2nd Amendment right to bear arms so cops can assume anybody they confront under reasonable suspicions may be armed. If there's no reasonable suspicion then what are they patting people down for?
     
  10. CAcop

    CAcop

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    Did a judge say there was no reasonable suspicion on each and every stop?
     
  11. fx77

    fx77 CLM

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    Stop Stop and Frisk? Ray Kelly chief of police has repeatedly asked what is the alternative? Give me one?

    Since 90% of the crime by minorities is on minorities..what will happen when this crime rate goes up in the absence fo stop and frisk? What will then the minority community say?

    Police do not care about minority on minority crime..We are in a legal deadended feed back loop
     
  12. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    A pat-down, aka "frisk" is a search.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  13. wprebeck

    wprebeck Got quacks?

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    Mm..looks like heaven
    And if he doesn't understand something as basic as the definition of a search, just how can he tell the rest of us how to do our jobs? Oh, wait - easily. Throw out some opinions that have no basis in decades of established case law from across the country, because such opinions fit his point of view. Ignore all evidence to the contrary, and simply spout off about the Nazi-like practices of today's system of policing.

    Hey Sean - you and a few other are old enough to remember when things were different. You guys may have participated (or at least heard stories) of how old timers use to police. Think things are kindler and gentler these days? I know I've heard stories about working the in 70's and 80's, and honestly. - I think a lot of folks would be shocked to hear how things were done in the old days.
     
  14. Mrs. Tink

    Mrs. Tink Semper Fidelis

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    You know, I'm just going to give up here. I tried to be as respectful as possible when asking you LEOs who don't like it when people say "never talk to the police" to just IGNORE those folks and spend a little time enlightening people who might want to learn. Which you did; I never said otherwise. Rather than recognizing my request as such, you lambasted me for "[choosing] to take (your comments) out of context." I couldn't care less about what you think of other posters. I'm just trying to ask for a little info in general. Sorry you think I'm some hostile entity wasting your time. :upeyes:
     
  15. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    See what you get for talking to the POlice. :rofl:
     
  16. seanmac45

    seanmac45 CLM

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    Mrs Tink;

    I have no issues with you whatsoever. I apologize sincerely if I offended. The only person I have difficulty with in this thread is G19G20 who shows an unlimited capacity for both being obtuse as well as twisting things around in an effort to paint the police in a bad light.

    It would be my pleasure to answer any questions you have to the best of my ability.
     
  17. CAcop

    CAcop

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    Policing in a high crime minority area is not for the easily discouraged.

    The 'burbs are almost always better.
     
  18. G19G20

    G19G20 Status Quo 2014

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    :upeyes:
    Yeah, that's exactly what I did. :upeyes:

    Posting a video of why not to talk to cops ever and shredding CAcop's false argument that random frisks are the same as Terry Stops. Yeah I twisted it all up. Get real. Shocker that cops are always trying to justify their own bad behavior in the public eye.

    "We find no misconduct." Heard that a little too often lately.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  19. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    Give the NYC cops some credit.

    At least they aren't doing stop and frisk on 90 year old grandmothers or disabled 6 year old's in wheelchairs like another agency. They are actually using their intelligence, experience, and training to target people that are more likely to be a problem.

    I don't like it, but demonizing the cops that are doing their job in accordance with the law is ridiculous.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  20. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    Well, you don't, or didn't, realize that a frisk was a search. And you still want to characterize these things as "random". As far as I can see, your only claimed evidence for that is that sometimes nothing is found: "Nothing was found. Why? Because it was a purely random stop based on NO articulable facts other than Mr. Bilal, a black man carrying a bag, happened to be in the same area as a cop that had nothing better to do than to harrass a law abiding citizen doing his laundry."

    If I've read you wrong, how about you present your evidence that this program is based on random selection? No, a media article doesn't count as evidence. Neither does a single stopee's failure to understand or relay the factors considered by the cops.

    Then, let's play a math game: to begin, what is the success rate of NYPD's program? "Success" means a stop that ends in an arrest or summons--they correctly picked a criminal out of the landscape.