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Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by TBO, Mar 4, 2012.
This is a weird quirk of 2 intersecting No Pistol Zone's defined many years apart... Originally, possession of a pistol was defined as a crime in the standard places, schools, banks, etc, something like that. But back then, as a may issue state, with few people allowed to carry, they exempted concealed pistol holders. (At that point, I believe they could carry concealed anywhere with the permit, barring restrictions on the permit.) I think its been that way since the late 1800s.
Enter 2001, shall issue becomes law, and no pistol zones are now defined for concealed permit holders, where they cannot carry concealed.
However, in MI, open carry is legal, as there's no law against it. Except for the original pistol free zones you can open carry anywhere else. Only concealed pistol holders are still exempt from those open carry pistol free zones.
Have a problem with the article...
They didn't decide not to press charges?. There were no valid charges to press. Not the same thing. One is they didn't think there was any point charging the guy with the crimes he committed for whatever reason. This was a case of they decided there weren't any law broken.
The guy broke no laws. Lots of people open carried into schools that day to vote. And lots of people have OCed into schools to vote on other polling days and for other reasons without issue. The problem is Kent Co. is very antigun. As one OCer from the area described it they're about 3 years behind the rest of the state (as far as recognizing lawful OC). This county also takes one of, if not the most, time issuing a CPL.
ETA: There is not such thing as an "open carry PFZ" there is 750.234d that prohibits those without a CPL from possessing a firearm on certain premises, which does mean one cannot OC there but it also means even if you are not OCing you may not have a gun there, unless exempted.
Simply using that term "open carry PFZ" to distinguish the prohibited areas from the earlier law from the Concealed Carry law pistol free zones. Convenient shorthand.
Yes but it's misconceiving. Many people will look at 750.234d and say it's where you cannot open carry when in fact people can open carry in those places.
That's incorrect, nothing confusing about it. If you cannot possess a pistol in those areas, you can't open carry either.
Just as the PFZs in the 2001 concealed carry law are places you cannot conceal carry.
Both cases unless you fit one of the exemptions.... not legal to carry.
Concealed carry areas have exemptions, the older law has exemptions as well, one of which allows concealed pistol permit holders to possess a pistol in those areas it is otherwise illegal to possess the pistol. The areas, PFZs in the concealed pistol law still apply, and so where they coincide with the same areas in the older law, concealed carry is still illegal, even though the permit makes possession legal. hence, the pistol can be carried openly, but not concealed.
So then explain to me what are the "open carry PFZs"?
The specific places listed where possession of pistols is prohibited in the older law.
Offhand, banks (interestingly not prohibited in CC PFZs), schools, stadiums. Mostly the same as the 2001 law's PFZs, lots of overlap, a few differences.
Are you looking for the MCL number, or the exact text of the statute? I'd have to look that up.
ETA: you mentioned 750.234d, I'm assuming that's the 2001 CPL law, right? Its not in that statute, there's an earlier statute where these other locations were listed specifically, which opens the loophole mentioned in the article because it lists a CPL as an exemption to the places possession of pistols is not permitted.
This guy did NOT get off based on the general case in MI of open carrying being legal because there's no law against it. There is no law specifically legalizing open carry, or forbidding it. There IS one that prohibits possession of pistols in certain areas. THAT law has an exemption for CPL holders, which is what made this guy legal to open carry.
IANAL, by the way. Thought I should point that out in case I appear well informed and people don't think they need to check it out for themselves...
Old law doesn't matter. What matter is what is the current law. Under current law it's illegal for a person with a CPL to carry a concealedpistol in places listed under 28.425o. If the person does NOT have a CPL they cannot possess a firearm (even in their car in the parking lot) on the premises of a place listed under 750.234d. There is not statue under current law specially regarding places one cannot "open carry".
Old law (assuming you found the correct one, i.e. 28.425o) is still in effect. It was not superceded by the CPL law. It does matter. You cannot open carry a pistol where you cannot possess a pistol. It doesn't have to specify "open carry" where mere possession is illegal.
Please provide a cite. The closest thing I can see to why some would think 750.234d applies to OC is because someone without a CPL cannot OC in those places. But it's not that OC is illegal there because it's not for those who do have a CPL.
750.234d is not the statute I'm talking about. (turns out that IS the statute I'm talking about)
Why do you think this guy got off without charges? (not meant in argumentative way, simple question)
ETA: Just looked up 28.425o, that's an amendment to the CPL law. That's definitely NOT it.
He wasn't ok because the CPL law doesn't prohibit open carry in PFZ's listed in the 2001 CPL law or its amendments.
Its generally legal to open carry anywhere in MI because its not prohibited. That's not why he got off. Its not a case of cops assuming open carry was illegal when it is not. He was in a school, a prohibited place under both the CPL law (when concealed) and the older law. If he did NOT have a CPL, he could have been charged.
The "old law" I refer to is not the original 2001 CPL law, which was amended by 28.425o.
The old law prohibited possession in banks, schools, churches, etc.
Have to go, but if you google MSP legal update (probably #86 if memory serves) you should be able to find it... I'll post later when I get home...
ETA: just looked, it is 234d. Old as in 1931 Prohibited places. Not sure what the issue is here....
You can't open carry where possession is prohibited. If you are open carrying, you are in possession of the pistol.
If you are claiming 234d does not prohibit open carry in those places because there are some exemptions, then there are no PFZs in the 2001 CPL law either, because there are exemptions there also.
You can't possess a pistol in a school, therefore you cannot open carry in a school, that's why he was arrested. Charges were not filed because a CPL exempts him from the prohibition against possessing a pistol codified in 234d. Its not that open carry is legal in a school, its because he's exempt from that law due to the CPL. Without the CPL, he's facing a violation of 234d.
Well the law regarding weapons on school grounds is 750.237a. (besides 28.425o) which exempts those with a CPL. I am very familiar with MSP legal update #86. Also it is not illegal to open cary or concealed carry in a bank (with a CPL), it is also not illegal to open carry in a school or church. The police knew OC was legal in MI they just didn't know it was legal to OC in a school with a CPL.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a school is not clearly defined in the law:
MCL 750.234d provides that it is a 90 day misdemeanor to possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
A depository financial institution (e.g., bank or
A church or other place of religious worship
A sports arena
A day care center
An establishment licensed under the Liquor
The above section does not apply to any of the following:
The owner or a person hired as security (if the
firearm is possessed for the purpose of providing
A peace officer
A person with a valid concealed pistol license
(CPL) issued by any state
A person who possesses on one of the above
listed premises with the permission of the owner or owner’s agent
The wording used to state a "school or day care center. " IIRC.
The word "school" is not used here. As a fellow Michigander, I find this interesting.
I can OC with my CPL into COBO? That would be sweet! What I mean is, can you basically skirt the Pistol Free Zones by OCing with a valid CPL?
Yup, looks like I was mistaken about schools, was going by memory, must have been thinking of the 2001 CPL zone
750.234d is not the applicable statue when it comes to schools. 750.237a. is though. And yes you can legally open carry into places listed under 28.425o. because it applies to concealed carry only. If you have a CPL you are exempt from 750.234d and 750.237a. (weapons free school zone). Keep in mind thought you still cannot carry (open or concealed) into a PRIVATELY OWNED DETROIT CASINO. And I do not know what COBO is. Also keep in mind that while you are not violating this statue by open carrying into a college dorm or classroom colleges can still create ordinances as severe as misdemeanors. I believe the only colleges that can do this are UofM, MSU, and WSU. UofM allow not guns on campus PERIOD. MSU allows all "lawful carry" but have said they will arrest open carries, and WSU does not allow guns on campus as well. I'd suggest checking out migunowners.org forum before open carrying to make sure you know the laws well.
In most any situation or area in Michigan "open carry" definitely causes attention.
I have never openly carried and never plan to do so, however, I think it serves the purpose of making sure that no person who is licensed to carry a concealed firearm can be charged for simply allowing their firearm to accidentally being exposed.
It's a perfectly normal reaction for people to notify the police if they see a person openly carrying(or attempting to conceal) a firearm.
While I wouldn't advise, or support the choice of the guy who openly carried his firearm to the shcool in order to vote. However, it did attract a lot of attention and the result was many people being educated about Michigan law in regards to openly carrying a firearm.
I would like to add a lot of people OCed into schools (and other polling stations) on that day and many other days with zero issues.
That is a kind of interesting intersection of two laws. Open carry is legal there in a school zone, for a CCW holder.....
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. It is just hard to fathom taking my weapon into a school after 5 years of carrying and only observing the 28.425o law. I don't generally OC, but I'm open to the idea if it allows me and my weapon into places I normally wouldn't be able to carry. Also, if this exemption is the case, why are people checked at Ford Field with metal detectors? Are you saying that with an OC, by law, if it's not private property, I would have to be let in with an OC?
I see under the 750.237a http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28gc1lqn45qwtwslug2rpnca45%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-237a
Under 5 c.
(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
(a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.
(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
Now, it specifically says "possesses". Does "possesses" simply mean you have one unloaded in a case walking through the grounds to somewhere close by (such as you only live a few blocks away from a buddy who will look at your gun if you have a problem - but there is a school between the two destinations)?
What I'm getting at here is, is OCing a loaded handgun simply possessing it, or is it carrying a loaded gun? I see a discrepancy in the meaning of possess versus carry.
ETA: This is what I could find regarding the issue. It concerns a reserve police officer. This is the last paragraph:
It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized “peace officer” or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code. - Jennifer Granholm June 28, 2002. (From the opinions section of the Firearms Laws of Michigan 2011 pdf)
BTW, COBO Hall is the place right next door to Joe Louis Arena (where the 'Wings play). It is home to the North American International Auto Show when it comes to town, and also Autorama which just recently took place there.