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New and Upcoming Wax Test Tube Tests

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by 21Carrier, May 6, 2011.

  1. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    I planned on doing both the factory and modified 180gr XTP tests today, but one of my tubes was not ready, so I had to choose just one. I would have done the factory XTP, but when I made my cardboard tube for my first wax tube, I made it slightly too large in diameter (about 4.5"), and consequently, my wax depth was only about 9". Because of this, I decided to test the modified 180 XTP, since it would be less likely to penetrate as far and exit the tube.

    Modified 180gr XTP

    Today was my first time shooting 180gr bullets over 800-X, so I had to test a work-up first. Hornady's manual lists a max of 10.1gr, so I started with 9.6gr, and also did strings of 9.9gr, 10.2gr, 10.5gr, and 10.8gr. I made a modified bullet for each of the 10.X strings in case I maxed out at 10.2 or 10.5gr. Pressure signs were minimal (only one tiny Glocksmile at 10.8gr), so I was able to use the 10.8gr load for the test. It consisted of Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, and a COAL of 1.260". In all honesty, I really feel this load might have been too hot. This was the first load that has ever HURT my hand slightly. It felt SERIOUS!

    Anyway, I knew over-penetration, and the bullet leaving the tube were possibilities, so I used some 2-liter bottles as backstops. The tube was set on the ground at about a 45* angle towards me. The 2 2-liter bottles were lying down behind it. The round did exit the tube, dented the first bottle, and plowed about 1/2" into the ground.

    The bullet fragmented to a degree, leaving 22.1gr of lead in the wax, and about 25gr of lead unaccounted for. The remaining projectile was found in the ground with 133.3gr left intact. The jacket did not separate, but I was able to pull it off of the core. Expansion measure .934" max, and .601" minimum.

    Now, when comparing this round to a factory 180gr XTP (only tested in water), it may seem that it was a failure, and perhaps I drilled slightly too far. Maybe a hole of .25-.275" in depth would have been better for retained mass, but as far as tissue damage goes, this is thus far the CLEAR winner.

    When examining the wound channel, it looks like a small lead explosion went off about 3-4" deep into the tube. There is what looks like vaporized lead all over the inside of the wound channel's main chamber. The chamber itself is about 2.5" in diameter (a good .5" larger than anything else), and the cardboard tube was completely split and blown out (similar to my original 155gr XTP test, but this tube was way more reinforced).

    The results are what I would summarize as a 135gr Nosler that released the massive energy characteristic of it's explosions, while simultaneously retaining all of it's mass (133gr in this case). Because the bullet kept a good bit of mass and its jacked didn't separate, it still achieved what would likely have been 11-12" of penetration. Imagine this in a human. A COM hit that basically exploded at a depth of about 3-4" (basically right on or in the heart), yet a good chunk would keep penetrating to the spine or beyond.

    Pics of wax tube:

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Modified180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607492222212770530

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Modified180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607492395859778722

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Modified180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607492427336417074

    Pics of bullet:

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Modified180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607492883300852066

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Modified180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607492940952206706

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Modified180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607492943817130530

    180gr Gold Dot and 180gr Starfire water jug tests

    I fired one each of the 180gr Starfire and Gold Dot bullets into water jugs. They were used with 10.3gr of 800-X, and the same cases/primers/COAL as above.

    Update: this Gold Dot load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1259fps on 8/4/11. The Starfire has not yet been chronographed.

    Neither round was found. I found many small pieces of each bullet, which suggests they blew apart. Wax tube tests of them will reveal much more, and will be coming soon. I'm now really wondering how hard I should push some of these bullets. Since they are all designed around the .40S&W, I'm thinking I should keep them in the warm-hot zone, and away from hot-nuclear.

    The XTPs and Silvertips have proven to hold together at the ridiculous power levels. I fear the 165/180 Gold Dots, 180 Starfires, and I know the 135 Noslers are going to be bombs. I really want to like the Starfire and Gold Dot, and I'm hoping it does well, but today's preliminary test was a bust.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  2. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    Hey 10mm fans, I need help. I have the 180gr XTP results, and will have them here in about an hour, but for now, I need some advice. Let me know how hard you guys want me to drive these next few bullets when tested (165 & 180gr Gold Dot, 135gr Nosler JHP, 180gr Starfire, 200gr Black Talon). I had planned to go full-house on them, and still might, but after shooting a 180gr Gold Dot and Starfire at some jugs yesterday, I'm having some reservations (today's 180gr XTP test is also giving me second thoughts). I shot the 180gr GD and Starfire yesterday at jugs with a very hot load, and they basically vaporized. I didn't find the bullets, but found fragments everywhere. Today, I found what was left of the Gold Dot. I will weigh it soon and post the pics when I post the 180gr XTP info in a minute, but it looks shredded, and seems to be down to about 100-120gr. It just seems like the XTP and Silvertip are the only bullets that can handle real 10mm velocities.

    Those two bullets (jug tests of 180gr GD and Starfire) were fired using 10.3gr of 800-X (.5gr below my personal max). I'm thinking about testing these bullets around 10.1-10.3gr in the wax tube. 10.1gr is Hornady's max for a 180gr XTP. What do you guys want to see? Hot, or full-house nuclear (at least as far as I'm willing to go)? Help me out and tell me how far to go. Just respond with either HOT or NUCLEAR.

    I'm not sure how many people actually tune in to this thread, since it's not really a discussion type thread, but I hope I get at least a few responses. Even if no one was checking this stuff, I'd still keep doing it. I'm just worried that 10.8gr (or a similar max with the lighter/heavier bullets) is going to result in a "frag-nasty" splatter of lead. Let me know what you think. Don't worry about voting NUCLEAR, as my first priority will be to stay safe, so I'm not gonna go past anything I haven't already tested.
     


  3. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    Hornady 180gr XTP Wax tube test

    I tried to do the factory 180gr XTP test today, but the tube wasn't sitting right, so I had to bend down to shoot it, and . . . well, excuses aside, I missed. It went in about 1" from center, penetrated almost 12", then exited the side. I never found the bullet. DAMMIT!!! I was sooooo mad. I had a ruined wax tube, no bullet, and no spare test bullets. Anyway, the wax tube data remains, just not the bullet data. I'll repeat it in the future. It does, however, seem that the bullet was driven too fast. This is the first factory XTP that I've ever seen fragment. There were lots of pieces of lead core and copper jacket all in the tube, and some on the ground. Load used: Rem nickel brass, CCI 300, 10.8gr 800-X, Hornady 180gr XTP, COAL 1.260", fired from stock G29, CAUTION, SERIOUSLY HOT, WAY OVER BOOK!!!

    As I said, the bullet penetrated about 12" before leaving the tube, so I'm guessing around 14-16" of wax penetration would be about right. The wound chamber was about 2" wide, which is very big; about .5" less than the modified bullet.

    Pictures of wax tube:

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Hornady180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607944862129923026

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Hornady180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607944921256346466

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Hornady180grXTPWaxTubeTest#5607944923325987778

    180gr XTP Take 2

    After I cooled down, and had said some choice words, I realized that I had a whole box of 180gr XTPs loaded up. These, however were loaded with only about 8.5gr of 800-X. I looked at the tube, and realized it was still in pretty good shape, so I put one of those rounds in it. I was amazed at how well it did. It seems like this velocity is what the XTP was made for. Penetration was right around 9" (for about 18" in tissue), and the wound channel was about 1.5" wide. The cool thing about this channel, though, was how it was 1.5" wide for a few inches. Usually, the channel opens up fast, then narrows back down. This one opened fast, then stayed the same size for a few inches. I guess it shows the "controlled expansion" concept of the XTP.

    The bullet expanded REALLY well, too. Max expansion was .820", min was .678". Retained mass was a perfect 180.0gr. The jacket did not separate. This seems to be the ideal velocity for the 180gr XTP. Too bad I don't have a chronograph yet. This really makes me wonder if we gain that much by overdriving the bullets. I guess so. We definitely get more penetration, and the massive energy deposit.

    Pics of wax tube:

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900...y180grXTPWaxTubeTestTake2#5607945592352648194

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900...y180grXTPWaxTubeTestTake2#5607945675705844498

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900...y180grXTPWaxTubeTestTake2#5607945680153820258

    Pics of bullet:

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900...y180grXTPWaxTubeTestTake2#5607946204651654802

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900...y180grXTPWaxTubeTestTake2#5607946231913332306

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900...y180grXTPWaxTubeTestTake2#5607946244196137970

    180gr Gold Dot water jug test

    I also found the 180gr Gold Dot that I shot into the water jugs yesterday. It was, for lack of a better word, mangled. It looks like it went through Hell. I guess that's what 10.3grs of 800-X will do (other load specifics are same as above).

    Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1259fps on 8/4/11.

    The bullet expanded to a max of 1.236", although that includes a long piece of copper jacket sticking way out to the side. When only measuring the core of the bullet, max expansion was .565", min being .502". Retained mass was 141.9gr. This was not surprising since I found tons of shrapnel all over the place yesterday. It seems that it was way overdriven. However we will see how it performs in the wax tube.

    Pictures:

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Speer180grGoldDotWaterJugTest#5607946596279453954

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Speer180grGoldDotWaterJugTest#5607946692681368466

    https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/Speer180grGoldDotWaterJugTest#5607946662853202930

    Please read my previous post, and vote on what type of load you would like to see for the next few tests. The 135gr Nosler and 200gr Black Talon already have loads set for them, and will be on the NUCLEAR side. The 180gr Gold Dot and Starfire, and the 165gr Gold Dot are up for grabs. Please let me know if you would like to see NUCLEAR or just HOT.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  4. Jitterbug

    Jitterbug

    870
    5
    Aug 27, 2002
    Personally I find your "testing" interesting, but I don't think you should be going over published data with ANY of the loads, and to approach book max loads with caution, so my vote is for warm, NOT hot and to load up what is referred to as nuclear is just a matter of time and a blown gun waiting to happen.

    The Hornady 7th gives a velocity range of 750-1450 fps for the 180 XTP and I would expect it to hold together better then the Gold Dot at 10mm velocity, while I find the high velocity results interesting, I'd also be interested in what kind of performance to expect at slower speeds, say 1000 to 1100 fps, which in my opinion would be a more practical speed for CCW application.

    Same for the 155 and 200 gr. XTP which the Hornady 7th lists as 850-1300 and 700-1200 fps respectively.

    My ability to "read" pressure signs from examining 10mm brass for signs of over pressure is about as reliable as my predicting the future with a WeeGee board, but what do I know I've only been around guns, reloading, reading and shooting for over 50 years and I've seen my share of blown guns and guy's leaving the range in an ambulance.

    To maintain that the "Lawyers" are trying to take away all our fun with watered down reloading data is ridiculous, there is a reason for max loads, it's called pressure testing equipment, and it's greatly improved over the past 20 years, with the obvious prudent fudge factor being built in for the always present unpredictable variations.

    Of course I recommend careful workups with book data and especially so if you're using bullets with differing bearing surfaces etc. The 200 gr. Black Talon for example, may or may not have the same pressure curve as a 200 gr. XTP

    Interesting stuff by all means but I'd hate to see you or anyone else get the idea that going over book is a safe practice.

    "Plenty of people play with fire. Some learn to stop, others are seriously injured and suffer through life."
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  5. Taterhead

    Taterhead Counting Beans

    3,595
    107
    Dec 13, 2008
    Boise, Idaho
    8.5 grains of 800x under a 180 gr XTP (WLP primer) chrony 1135 fps from my G20 so back off the usual adjustment for the G29.

    As far as voting for the next projectile, my vote would be for a 165 grain Gold Dot at medium warm velocities 1300 - 1350. In my somewhat limited experience the 165 seems stouter than the 180. It looks beefier around the hollow point so it may be less prone to over expanding and breakup than the larger projectile. I think the 180 is designed to expand well at 40 velocities and seems less substantial at the nose.

    800-x data will be scarce, but I imagine that a charge of 9.5 to 9.8 should get you in the ballpark. Of course, I would work up to that.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  6. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    Thanks, guys. Jitterbug, the only powder I have ever pushed over book max is 800-X. I only do so because all of the book maxes list pressure of 30,000 psi, which is well below the 37,500psi max. I've never gone even a tenth of a grain over book max with Blue Dot or Unique (not that I remember off the top of my head). It seems 800-X has an acceptable over book range, though I may just be asking for trouble.

    Taterhead, I think you're right about the 165 Gold Dot being stronger. It has a shallow conical hollowpoint while the 180 has a deep hole drilled down the middle to promote expansion. I will likely keep the tests around book max. While I would love to test them several times (low velocity, medium, and high) these tubes take too long to melt/pour to do it that many times.
     
  7. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    4,134
    68
    Apr 13, 2004
    Wichita, KS
    Wow, 21 ... I've been reading these posts through but have been dealing with a sick wife AND daughter, followed by the wife's birthday and subsequent party and barbeque, as well as other stuff... and work. So I'll get in here and give my .02 when I get some free time. VERY interesting about the different results between overdriven 180gr XTP vs warm loaded 180gr XTP.....
     
  8. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    I'm going to test one or two of the following in the wax tube tomorrow, let me know which you are most interested in seeing: 135gr Nosler JHP, 165gr Gold Dot, 180gr Gold Dot, 180gr Starfire, 200gr Black Talon. I have decided that the 180s and 200gr Black Talon will be loaded with a max book load according to Hornady's newest manual (either with Blue Dot or 800-X depending on which lists the best velocity). The 135 Nosler will likely be around 13.0gr of 800-X, and the 165 Gold Dot load has not been decided upon yet. I'm thinking that I'll do the 135gr Nosler last so I can combine all the wax from both tubes, and make an especially wide 6" tube, since I'm expecting it will result in a VERY wide, short wound channel.

    Let me know which ones you guys want to see first!!!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  9. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    4,134
    68
    Apr 13, 2004
    Wichita, KS
    For me, that's an easy answer: The BLACK TALON!! :) There are a lot of things to consider when deciding how much powder to stuff in that case, however, and some of that depends on the length of the bullet. How long is the bullet compared to, say, a 200gr XTP? If its shorter then its probably safe to load it the same way as your 200gr XTP max loads.... I realize you only have one or two Talons, though.

    I'd personally be interested in seeing a test with 8.5-9.0gr of IMR-800X (new case, CCI300 or equivalent primer, 1.26" OAL, etc) That should get that bullet up and moving at over 1200fps (at LEAST, depending on pistol) and really show us how "tough" it is. Of course, it would probably be prudent to start at book max using 800X and work up. :)

    The second choice would be the Starfire. I've actually done some expansion tests with a Starfire (in .45ACP many years ago) and it did, in fact, expand perfectly.
     
  10. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    Ok, I'm gonna test the Black Talon and 180gr Gold Dot in just a little bit. The only problem: I dropped my computer and cracked my screen so it will be out of commission for a week or so. I'll try to do everything with my iPhone but we will see how that goes. So the pics might have to wait til I get the computer back but I'll at least post everything else. The Black Talon will be backed by 8.8gr 800-X. Thats a little lower than what I know is safe for 200gr XTPs so it should be good. The 180gr GD will have 10.3gr 800-X. I'll be back with results around 7-8 tonight!!!
     
  11. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    4,134
    68
    Apr 13, 2004
    Wichita, KS
    Cool, and that sounds real good with the charges you've chosen. :popcorn:
     
  12. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    Last edited: May 21, 2011
  13. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    180gr Gold Dot wax tube test

    I was seriously disappointed with the 180gr Gold Dot. I was expecting huge expansion but instead got decent but irregular expansion on only 2/3 of the bullet. Two of the six petals didn't even OPEN. I was not impressed. It fully penetrated the full 14" of the wax tube, but the diameter of the channel was very narrow. I didn't see any of the massive wound chamber that's been so common with other bullets.

    Max expansion was a good .823" (although that was with one petal sticking way out to one side), min was .605". No jacket separation occurred (no surprise). Retained mass was 163.1gr.

    Load used: 10.3gn 800-X, CCI 300, COAL 1.260"

    Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1259fps on 8/4/11.

    Pics will be here soon

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-12.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-10.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-2.jpg

    200gr Black Talon wax tube test

    The Black Talon was quite impressive for 20 year old technology. It left a SERIOUS wound chamber in the wax, with six chunks of lead (each weighing ~5gr) shooting off into the wax and creating six secondary channels. Penetration was 15+", as it passed all the way through the tube, and put a dent in the ground. The petals were folded way further back than any BT or similar I've ever seen, likely due to the extra velocity.

    Retained mass was 165.2gr without the six broken off lead chunks, 196.9th with the chunks. Max expansion was .700", min was .603". The sharp hooks or "talons" were folded all the way to the back in a mangled mess.

    Load used: 8.8gn 800-X, CCI 300, COAL 1.260"

    Update: I only have one BT left, and I intend to keep it as a souvenir. So, I can only extrapolate on velocity data. I'll use the 200gr XTP's data to make a good guess. With the 200gr XTP, 8.7gr of 800-X produced a 10-shot average of 1114fps. The 200gr XTP with 9.0gr of 800-X hit 1124fps. Since the difference is only 10fps, I would guess with good certainty that the 200gr Black Talon was doing about 1120fps.

    Pics coming soon (left to right: Black Talon, Gold Dot, Starfire)

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-4.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-5.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-6.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-7.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-1.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-8.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-9.jpg

    http://s1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/?action=view&current=photo-11.jpg

    I also tested a second PMC Starfire in water jugs, since the first seemed to almost vaporize. Well this one was pathetic. It didn't open AT ALL. One petal just broke off, but the nose stayed intact like a FMJ. I sure hope it tests better in the wax tube.

    OK, the pictures should work now, but let me know if not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  14. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
  15. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    Ok, the pics for the Black Talon/Gold Dot tests should be working now. Sorry it took so long.

    PLEASE, SOMEONE POST AND LET ME KNOW IF THE PICS FOR THE BLACK TALON/GOLD DOT TEST ARE WORKING!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  16. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    4,134
    68
    Apr 13, 2004
    Wichita, KS
    Wow! I'm not surprised with your 180gr GD results ... they are nice, bonded penetrators but I still don't think they are optimal in FULL POWER 10mm loadings... they would suffice for smaller deer and would probably drop em fast due to violent expansion and bonded construction, but the expansion wouldn't be huge due to its velocity window being exceeded.

    I'm quite unimpressed, actually, with the Talons... The only reason being that the bullet is OBVIOUSLY being driven way too fast. I'd love to see a tried and true 10mm Talon bullet designed for 1200+fps... I think the 200gr BT you tested is probably designed for 1000fps. Oh well, we tried, right?? :)

    The Starfire's results were pathetic, I agree. I've had good results with them before, but that was in water, no wax.

    Thanks for the tests and results, sir!!
     
  17. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    The Starfire WAS shot into water. I haven't yet tested it in the wax tube. That should be later this week. The first one I shot into water (about a week ago) basically vaporized. For some reason, this one penetrated 3 jugs, hit the phone book backstop, and just sat there, unexpanded. I have NO IDEA what happened. There was nothing in front of the jugs to plug it, and the cavity was not plugged, so who knows. The only thing that I can imagine is maybe it cut out a small piece of plastic from the first jug, and it stayed right in front of the cavity, preventing water from entering and working its magic.

    I was just shocked that the Gold Dot did so poorly, as the one I shot into water absolutely shredded. I was very surprised that it barely opened, as I thought they were good expanders. Usually, when you overdrive bullets, they OVER expand. This one barely expanded. A repeat is in order. Actually, all will be repeated after I do some .45ACP and .357Sig tests. I'm also hoping to get some Golden Sabers, Barnes X-bullets, maybe a Pow'RBall, plus anything else I can get my hands on.

    Although the result of the Black Talon test looked kind of unimpressive, the wax tube damage tells a different story. The way it fragmented and made SEVEN different wound channels was impressive. Also, the wound chamber was pretty huge. Plus, it penetrated the whole tube. At the end, it wasn't the pretty slug I was hoping to add to my collection, but it did a good bit of damage. It would be a devastating round. As you said, it was obviously overdriven. Maybe I'll decide to shoot that last factory round that I have. MAYBE.

    You know, after I've done all the bullets I have, I think I might test a 180gr FMJ, just for comparison's sake. I better bring a long tube.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2011
  18. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    4,134
    68
    Apr 13, 2004
    Wichita, KS

    I totally see what you're saying about the wound channel ... and you're right, that's really what matters. Not only that, but it penetrated really well, so that is good. I guess I just wanna see a 200gr Black Talon that LOOKS like a proper Black Talon, having stayed together AND penetrated. Still, I have no doubt that what you tested would be effective.

    I'm so glad that XTP's are easy to find AND cheap. I sure love them, overall.
     
  19. 21Carrier

    21Carrier Until I Gota 29

    3,037
    11
    Feb 4, 2011
    Hoover, AL
    I know, I really wanted to add a perfectly opened Black Talon to my collection, but oh well. I really think XTPs are the best 10mm bullets out there, overall. I was browsing Midway the other night, and it's just crazy. They are ALWAYS available (even locally), they are cheaper than other, crappier bullets, they are accurate, expand reliably, did I mention cheap and available? Like we were talking about on the other thread, if they started making a 135gr XTP, I don't know if I'd even buy other bullets. Even some local, cheap FMJs (Magnus 180gr) are $44.00 for 250. The XTPs are $20 at the same store. So the XTPs are about $6 more per 250.