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Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by 21Carrier, May 6, 2011.
Very nice, thanks for the report. AWESOME STUFF IN HERE!!
Hornady 200gr XTP Wax Tube Test:
This wax tube test was a 200gr XTP over 8.7gr of 800-X, CCI 300 primer, Rem nickel brass, COAL 1.260". I meant to use 9.0gr, but had shot all of them, and forgot to make another before I went to the range. As always, it was out of my stock G29.
Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1114fps on 8/4/11.
It performed well. It achieved 12.5" of penetration (which should be around 25" in tissue/water). Expansion checked in at a normal XTP-like max of .679", with minimum expansion of .598". Mass retention was 187.3gr, which is in line with the retained mass of my water jug test (188.7gr for that one). The wound channel was a respectable 1.5" in diameter right after entry, and tapered down to bullet diameter as velocity bled off. As is usual with XTPs, there was no jacket separation.
While at the range, I also tested a modified 155gr XTP in water jugs. I modified it just like the 200gr XTP that I shot the other day. It was drilled with a 5/64" bit to basically double the depth of the hollow point cavity. This was backed with 12.0gr of 800-X (DO NOT USE THIS IN A STOCK GUN!!!). I have no doubt this bullet was traveling in excess of 1350fps, maybe 1400fps. It was hugely explosive in the first jug, but didn't even fully penetrate the second jug.
The combination of the modification and speed basically ripped the bullet apart. It expanded to .803" max, .635" minimum. The jacket fully separated, and only 93.9gr of its original mass was retained. This would not be a good bullet for anything, really. As I said before, DO NOT use this load in a stock barrel. I did, and it was definitely too hot. This was the first reload for me that has ever resulted in a Glocksmile (though it was minor, and only on one of ten). Also, slide velocity was so extreme, the slide was closing on the cases before they could even clear the gun. It ended up crushing about 3 of the 10 cases.
I was in a hurry earlier when I typed the above post, and I forgot to mention that my shot (tube test 200gr XTP) was off center. It caused one side of the tube to blow out, but the bullet stayed in the tube. One thing I find interesting is that the ONLY bullet that has blown the cardboard tube apart was the first test: the Hornady 155gr XTP. The rest of the tests have not resulted in a damaged cardboard tube. I think this is a good example of energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, or stopping power (whatever you want to call it). Velocity is the key to energy.
That test also showed the most massive internal wound cavity, and as I've seen, the cavity shrinks over time. I didn't cut that tube open for about 1 hour after shooting it. The Silvertip tubes waited about 2 hours. I will repeat both of those tests soon and cut them open immediately (as I did with this last 200gr XTP).
In the absence of a chronograph, it seems the 155gr XTP load was the best in terms of massive energy deposit, but with a chance of over-penetration (I'm still having a bit of trouble believing its 12+" of penetration, so a retest is coming). The reloaded Silvertip seems a close second in energy, first in expansion, with good penetration. I believe it will be the best carry round here. I wish I could get a hold of some 155gr Silvertips, as I believe they would be monster rounds for SD. The 200gr XTP is clearly the penetration winner, but expansion is a little mediocre. That, however, is the trade-off you must make for penetration.
I am excited to see my modified 200gr XTP test, which will be done either tomorrow or Thursday. I will test a 180gr XTP as soon as I find some (should be soon). But for the next few tests, expect the modified 200gr XTP, and the repeats of the 155gr XTP and Silvertip. I'll test more bullets as I find them.
Awesome report. You, Sir, have been busy.
Yes, I have. But it has been fun! I never get sick of testing, making, and shooting bullets.
I must say this is an awesome thread... but i've been so busy I have no time to add much to it. Keep it up, 21! I'm tuned in, here... I've been asking / wanting tests like this with XTP's for a while, now!
I've bought the petr. jelly to mix with the wax I had on hand. (Found it was cheaper at Dollar General than Walmart, Walgreens, etc.) Now to get the time to mix and test it....
Make sure you set aside a good bit of time. It takes probably about 1-2 hours for everything to melt. THEN, it's gonna take at least 4-5 hours to pour it into the mold. I wouldn't use a tube any bigger than 5" in diameter (the size would be preferable, but it would take forever to harden/pour). Both of mine are 4", and they seem to work fine.
The best way to do it is to pour about 1-2" deep at a time (I use a soup ladle, and usually pour 1.5-2 full scoops at a time), put it in the fridge, and let that layer fully harden. Then pour the next layer. If you pour in a bunch at a time, the top will harden first, then when the center hardens, it will shrink, causing a deep hole in the center. I've done it that way a few times, and it's OK, but you have to save enough at the end to fill in the hole. Also, realize that what you pour into the hole will in turn shrink, and then you'll have to fill in THAT hole.
Basically, just don't pour the whole lot into the tube at once, or you will be remelting it.
Edited to add: Also, if you do use the fridge to cut down hardening times, make sure you let the tube sit out at room temperature for about 3-4 hours (overnight would be ideal) to come back to room temperature before shooting. I haven't tested the tube cold, but for comparability's sake I think we should, if at all possible, keep tests equal. I would think cold wax would be less fluid, and could affect the bullet's expansion mechanism, and/or penetration depth.
Also, try to keep the melted wax temp as low as possible, as it will keep your hardening wait times to a minimum. After heating the water in my "double boiler", I adjust the stove to medium until the wax starts melting quickly, then I lower it to just above its lowest setting to keep it fluid.
Hey guys, as I mentioned, tomorrow I will test the modified 200gr XTP in the wax tube. However, I just realized something: there's still an abandoned pickup truck out where I shoot! Anyone want to see some "through the door" wax tube tests? I'll probably do some this weekend if the thing is still there. I'm thinking 155 and 180gr XTPs, a Silvertip, and maybe a 200gr XTP just for kicks. Let me know if y'all would like to see something like this.
Um yes. That would cool - especially any of the XTPs. Please do.
Sign me up!
Sign me up! In fact, can you stop by and pick me up so I can watch in person.
Ok, first let me start by saying, DAMN!!! THEY REMOVED THE TRUCK!!! I was SOOOOO pissed. I had about ten jugs and a wax tube, three different weights of XTPs, some Silvertips, and many different powder loads to test on the truck. But, alas, someone took it. I don't know why I didn't have the idea for that test earlier. DAMN!!!
Anyway, I tested four modified XTPs today, one 200gr in the wax tube, one 200gr in water jugs, and two 155gr bullets in water jugs. The 200gr results were impressive to say the least, while the 155gr bullets will require some more fine tuning.
Modified 200gr XTP Wax Tube Test:
I started this project totally on a whim. I simply noticed that the Winchester Silvertip bullets were almost identical to the XTPs, except they had a deep hole down the center of the hollow point. I measured it, and replicated it in a 200gr XTP just for the hell of it. After thorough testing, this bullet is a monster!
The modified 200gr XTP has a hole drilled down the center of the longitudinal axis. The hole's diameter is 5/64", and the depth is about .330" from the tip of the bullet. A drill press would be ideal for consistency, but a hand drill has sufficed for me.
WOW! Recall that my goal was to combine a Silvertip's expansion with the XTP's affordability, rugged jacket, and availability. The picture says it all; I feel I succeeded, at least with the 200gr bullet. The best I can describe how this bullet looks, is maybe a hybrid of a Gold Dot and a Silvertip. This load consisted of Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, 9.0gr 800-X, Hornady 200gr XTP, COAL 1.260", stock Glock 29 used.
Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1124fps on 8/4/11.
Max expansion registered .767", while minimum expansion stayed a respectable .705". Retained mass was excellent at 196.6gr. The bullet exhibited no jacket separation, and expansion was eerily similar to the hot, handloaded Silvertip. Penetration, at 11", ALMOST matched the normal XTP. Even so, 11" of wax penetration should equal 22+/-" in tissue/gelatin. So, a theoretical 22" of penetration, AND .8" of expansion!
I also tested a second modified 200gr XTP in water jugs. Remember, I tested one a few days ago that was awesome. This one disappointed. I was low on jugs, and it only had two jugs to rip through before burying itself in the ground. I think that caused it to not expand as far. Regardless, it still performed better than most factory 200gr XTPs. It showed a max expansion of .660", and a min of .594". Retained mass was 194.8gr.
I also videotaped this wax tube shooting, and I'll post it on YouTube in a minute. I'll place the link here, or you can just search for my screen name, Alphazuluz.
Pictures (left to right, factory 200gr XTP, modified 200gr XTP in water, modified 200gr XTP in wax tube, hot handloaded 175gr Silvertip in wax tube):
Modified 155gr XTP Water Jug Test:
I have been trying to get this "modification" to work with the 155gr XTP, but it keeps ending in what Mike McNett calls a "frag-nasty" situation. While it would make for one hell of a low-penetration, energy dumping round, it may not be perfect for SD applications. I still need to adjust the drill depth shallower. I believe the key will be a hole that barely penetrates the bullet.
Until it is sorted out, here is the data. Two rounds were tested, one was mostly recovered, of the other, only the core was recovered. The first was basically "frag-nasty", and the largest piece I found was the jacket. Total jacket separation occurred, and the core split into several pieces. I recovered a total mass of 124.7gr. Of the second bullet, I only recovered the core. It was heavily expanded to a max value of 1.007", and a minimum of .616". Without the jacket, recovered mass measured a disappointing 100.9gr. Both penetrated two jugs fully, the first entering a third. The second was only tested with two jugs, and was found on the ground behind the second jug.
I am still hopeful that I can fine-tune the depth of this modification to produce good results, but the short shank length of the 155gr bullet may not allow as much expansion as I'm looking for, at least without complete fragmentation.
Awesome report ... thanks for the work you've done here.
The modified 155gr looks eerily similar to the Nosler 135gr HP that McNett and many other's load which breaks apart every time after hitting pretty much ANY target. As for the 200gr, very very interesting.
I'd like to see the difference, if any, in the 180gr XTP vs the 200gr variety. There probably isn't too much difference but it would be interesting to know, considering the max loading of 180gr XTP's run around 100+ fps MORE than the hottest 200gr.
I was thinking the same thing. Stock 180 vs stock 200. That would be interesting to compare results.
Very cool tests 29Carrier errr, I mean 21Carrier. Thanks for bringing us along.
No problem, guys. I enjoy doing it. I would be doing it regardless. At least putting it here on the internet gives it more purpose. The next tests will be regular and modified 180gr XTPs. Hopefully I can do both of them on Sunday. Gun Show tomorrow!!! WOOOHOOO!!!!
Nice. I'll be in my wife's birthday celebration mode Sunday and Monday... Followed by a hangover on Tuesday. I will, however be tuned in via iPhone.
Hey guys, I went to the gun show with high hopes of scoring some 135gr Noslers, 165gr Gold Dots, and maybe some others. Well, that didn't exactly work out. I did get some 180gr XTPs, which I promised to test next. I'll try to test a normal and modified 180gr XTP tomorrow, but it will likely be Monday since I have yet to melt the wax from the last tests (it is a long process).
Anyway, I actually kind of lied earlier when I said I didn't find any of those bullets. I did, in fact, find 5 great new bullets to test, but all but one were in loaded .40S&W cartridges. So, I bought them, and I'm now pulling the bullets to use in some hot reload wax tube tests. So, without further ado, here are the new stars for the next line of testing (likely to be done in the next week):
1. PMC Starfire - I saw a post from someone else who had used one of these in a 10mm loading, and it resulted in OVER 1" of expansion. I'm VERY interested!!! This is the .40S&W 180gr variety, but will be reloaded to hot 10mm spec, of course. I have 40 of them.
2. Nosler 135gr JHP - I found these as CorBon .40S&W 135gr JHP. They also had the 10mm version, but it was $3.00 more, so I went with the .40s since I was gonna pull the bullets anyway. CorBon hit these with a SERIOUS crimp. I hope that doesn't cause problems (see pic below). It deformed the bullet somewhat. The rest look fine after being pulled. I have 20 of these.
3. Speer 165gr Gold Dot - Ok, so I bought a box of 50 of these for only $2 more than the box of 20. However, I got home and started pulling them apart to find that there were only 4, count 'em FOUR, 165gr bullets in the whole box of fifty. The rest were 180gr Gold Dots. DAMMIT!!! I have FOUR of these, damn ammo switchers!
4. Speer 180gr Gold Dot - Well, I wanted to test the 180gr GD, too, but I was too cheap to buy a box of both, so I was actually happy when I found a few of these in my box of 165gr bullets. Not so much when I realized that 46/50 were 180gr bullets. I really wanted the 165s more. Oh well. I have 46 of these.
5. Drum roll please . . . Yes, coming very soon, will be the one, the only, the legendary, armor piercing (not really), cop slaying, surgeon glove tearing, too bad ass for the American public (at least in black teflon), 200gr BLACK TALON 10mm!!! - I was sifting through this massive pile of old-ass ammo some old-timer had (I swear I had to YELL at him to get him to even realize I was standing there). And there it was, a single box of 10mm Black Talon ammo. I picked it up, and immediately realized it was way too light. I thought for a minute it was just the box, but no, there were TWO rounds left. He sold me the box and two rounds for the substantial sum of $2.00. How could I pass that up, even if they were to just collect dust? I will likely shoot one, and save the other. So I only have ONE to shoot, unless I do something to mess it up, and then I'll shoot the other. I guess having a fired, mushroomed Black Talon is even cooler than having an unfired one, right?
Anyway, I will be testing the five above rounds loaded to max power in the wax tube. I will also test the 180gr XTPs first, since I know a lot of you have really wanted to see that one.
Please, if any of you can help guide me towards good max loads for any of these bullets, I would greatly appreciate it. I promise I will be safe, but I simply don't have enough bullets to do a full work-up (especially with the 4 165gr GD, and ONE BT that I'm willing to fire). Any help would be greatly appreciated. If you aren't comfortable posting it here, just PM me. I SWEAR, if I blow my hand off, IT IS MY FAULT. There, I said it in plain view for the world to see. Now, hook a brother up with some good Blue Dot, or preferably 800-X loads. Thanks guys, I can't wait for the results!!!
AGAIN, PLEASE HELP ME WITH LOADS, ESPECIALLY WITH THE BLACK TALON.
Awesome!! Busy at the moment but I will try and assist with the loads later on or in morning!