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Need help with DT's 200gr. WFNGC

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by dumbyhotshot, Jan 18, 2011.


  1. dumbyhotshot

    dumbyhotshot
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    Hello all,

    I'm working up a load with a G20 using a stock length Lone Wolf barrel using Double Tap brass and their WFNGC 200 gr. bullet and WLP with IMR 800x.

    Going off of McNett's suggested 1.26 COAL I started loading at 10% below max for IMR's listed max for this powder.

    The problem I'm having is getting these bullets to chamber in my Lone Wolf barrel. They just will not drop in all the way. I've tried seating a bit deeper (down to 1.22 in.) and messed around with much more crimp but no joy. I can get them to chamber in my stock glock barrel just fine, but I don't want to use this barrel as I'm looking for more chamber support.

    Any suggestions? I can provide pictures of whatever if needed.

    Also, I have successfully chambered and fired some XTC's just fine so far.

    ETA- Just got off the phone with DT and they said seat deeper. 1.245 to 1.250. Off to try it.
     

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    #1 dumbyhotshot, Jan 18, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011
  2. hypnagogue

    hypnagogue
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    Well, since I have that LWD 20 barrel and also have some factory DoubleTap loaded 200 WFNGC ammo available to check:

    The round measures at 1.240 and does seat in my LWD 20 barrel.
     

  3. Hogpauls

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    Do you seat and crimp in the same operation? What die are you using to crimp with?

    I have the same LWD barrel and had to bring it down to 1.250" to get the rounds to chamber 100% of the time. Any longer and they get hung up. Also I crimp as seperate step using the Lee Factory Crimp Die which not only crimps the bullet but resizes the round. Pushing that big 200gr WFNGC into the brass kinda bulges it and the LFCD brings it back down to spec.
     
  4. Kegs

    Kegs
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    Ol 8 fingers ;)

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    The double tap ammo I measured COAL for it was 1.24" I suspect that is what they (mostly) load to on the 200gr. stuff.

    Not sure it will help - but it should.
     
  5. dumbyhotshot

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    I seat and crimp in two steps using dillon dies on a 550 b. May have to check out the lfcd heard all good about it. I've gone as deep as 1.22 with it still being a pita to chamber. The glock barrels is loose enough to seat at 1.25 in. A guy at double tap said don't go below 1.242.

    Thanks for the info on the factory dt ammo. My question is do the factory rounds chamber easily allowing you to spin the case or are they really tight. I'm a bit concerned about jamming these rounds into the barrel, but also about seating these huge slugs so deep?
     
  6. Meathead9

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    Maybe the chamber is out of spec? Do any other loads have trouble in that barrel? I have loaded over 100 of those bullets, from 1.25 to 1.26, and they all chamber perfectly. I have used a Lee FCD, and a standard Taper Crimp die, and so far no issues with either die.
     
  7. dumbyhotshot

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    I have loaded some 200 gr. xtp's at 1.26 with good results.

    How would I check if the chamber is in spec?

    Eta- I should maybe check my calipers as well.
     
    #7 dumbyhotshot, Jan 18, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011
  8. hypnagogue

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    The factory ammo does not spin in the chamber. It "clicks" in when chambering and holds in place.
     
  9. dumbyhotshot

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    Thanks hypnogogue, thats what I was looking for. Mine don't click, unless I drop them into my glock barrel. I must have some wacky bullets or a barrel on the tight side.
     
  10. MakeMineA10mm

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    Sounds to me like you have a particularly abrupt leade. At the front of the chamber, there is a step, which is what the front edge of the case bumps against to headspace. In front of that step is a short smooth area, which is called the throat. This is the full-diameter area which allows full-diameter bullets to seat ahead of the shoulder. In front of the throat is the leade, which is the tapered beginning of the rifling. Each land of the rifling is supposed to start off as a ramp for a very short distance, until it gets to full depth. Sounds like either the ramp on your leade is starting too far back into the throat area, or the ramp (angle) of the leade itself is very steep or abrupt.

    I have a Walther P88 with factory barrel which is like this. It is the most accurate handgun I own, but it is also very frustrating because I can only load it with ammo with a very short-ogive bullet...

    My suggestion is to call LW and ask them if you can send it back either for a new barrel or to have them re-ream the throat/leade area to make it correct to-spec. Your only other choice is to try shooting it and see if it's particularly accurate, like my Walther. If so, you have a choice to make. You can either have very good accuracy or very high performance. You won't get both, because by seating the bullets deeper, you'll never be able to run to the pure max loads that many here write about. OTOH, if you can get a 200gr XTP to 1125fps vs. 1175fps but with stellar accuracy; I don't think I'd complain...
     
  11. hypnagogue

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    Possibly. When dealing with cast lead, the more likely explanation is over-diameter bullets. Check the bullets first. They should be .400-.401. Give LWD the benefit of the doubt until the obvious causes are eliminated.
     
  12. dumbyhotshot

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    Bullet diameter is good. I've been seating them to 1.24 like the factory ammo and will have to see what kind of velocity I can get seated deeper. I'm hoping for 1200 fps.

    I wouldn't mind increased accuracy over very hot loads, but I still want some heat. I'm still working up slowly with the lead bullets after bumping my charge back down from seating deeper.

    Would the 200 gr. Xtp bullet be considered having a short ogive. They are working well at 1.26.
     
  13. MakeMineA10mm

    MakeMineA10mm
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    Depends on your seating depth. The XTP has a straight-side wall and then a quick radius to a truncated cone ogive. If you seat the bullet as most do, with just a bit of the straight wall sticking out of the case, then yes, they have a more-tapered ogive.

    Basically, as compared to your WFN, the XTP rounds the corner of that radius and then the ogive is a straight line to the radius that rolls around to the meplat (flat point of the nose). This straight ogive of a truncated cone means it will not interfere with just about any leade angle, as long as it is not seated out farther than normally intended.

    As opposed to that straight-taper on the Truncated Cone XTP, the WFN has a gentle, widened arc that runs from the straight side-wall of the bullet all the way around to an abrupt corner where the ogive meets the meplat. This means the WFN style bullet is sticking-out farther into the area where the leade is, and has the potential to result in interference between the leade and the ogive. Seating deeper moves the ogive backwards, allowing the cartridge to go deeper into the chamber before this interference occurs.

    "To be fair" to LWD (a company I really like, btw), I'd say that DoubleTap as well as other handloaders here have found the same "problem." This means that most-likely LWD has set up the specs of their chamber and leade to work with the most-common (and SAAMI spec) bullets, which are truncated cone. So, my point really was that if you want to push your 200gr WFNs by seating them out all the way to the point they work through the mag/feed cycle (~1.260"), then with that bullet, you'll have to get the leade modified. While many times it's a bullet issue, it was pretty clear from the info already here that it's probably the leade that's preventing seating these out to the max OAL.
     
  14. hypnagogue

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    I agree with this assessment. I think 1.260 is too long for that bullet, and that 1.240 is probably max OAL. Here's a side point -- how much longer is the XTP vs the WFNGC? (I don't have a WFNGC pulled or I would answer my own question.) I think the shape of the bullet might account for more than 0.02 inches in length, and thus make the case capacity with the WFNGC higher than the XTP, even with the shorter OAL.

    I've never had a problem with FTF with the 1.240 WFNGC, but I have with the 1.260 XTP. Just my experience.
     
  15. dumbyhotshot

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    Thanks for the help fellas.

    I'm gonna try both the wfngc at 1.24 and xtp at 1.26 for a bit to see how they function. If I can't get the wfngc to function at this oak then I'll seat deeper and start over with a lighter powder charge until they work. My plan was a woods round at 1200 fps but I won't compromise safety to get there and I can always use these as plinkers.
     
  16. MakeMineA10mm

    MakeMineA10mm
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    Very, very wise. You already mentioned it, so I knew I didn't have to, but you understood shortening OAL meant deeper seating, which almost always increases internal pressures.

    You are the kind of experienced reloader I like to see. Go at it methodically and carefully.
     
  17. Taterhead

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    Just a thought... but if you still have the stock barrel, the DT 200 gr wfngc functions great in my setup at 1.26". I have not been able to get to 1200 fps with 800x, but I do average 1200 fps with a charge of A9. No pressure or cycling issues whatsoever.
     
  18. dumbyhotshot

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    I do have the stock barrel still but I think I may get there seating at 1.24. I'm working back up from there and I'm getting close with no discernible to me excess pressure signs. Granted I'm skeptical about my ability to determine it based on primer's, ejector, or extractor marks. But, so far none. I'm in the mid 1100's and thinking about calling it good here even though I can't tell the difference in cases between my hottest and 10% below book max. Actually, the one difference is the primer is smeared a bit more around the striker indentation.

    One thing that bugs me about all this is why, if max average SAAMI pressure is 37,500psi, why do the books stop so short with 800x and 200 gr. bullets? My comfort level at being above max is tentative, but so many here have gone beyond where I'm going to stop that I fell good about getting more comfortable with these loads.

    ETA- Taterhead, Just saw your location and by your name you may live relatively close to where I'm at in SE ID. Just moved here in April and like this high desert stuff.
     
    #18 dumbyhotshot, Jan 21, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
  19. hypnagogue

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    There are many reasons:
    1) With a slow powder you can run out of barrel before the target pressure is reached,
    2) You can run out of case capacity before a target pressure is reached
    3) The powder may become unpredictable at or near the target pressure or temperature (large SD)
     
  20. Taterhead

    Taterhead
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    Counting Beans

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    Welcome to Idaho. I grew up in your part of the state. A lot of good memories.