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Muzzleloaders

Discussion in 'Hunting, Fishing & Camping' started by mpol777, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

    1,680
    0
    Jul 23, 2001
    Cochise County, AZ
    I've been hearing through the grape vine that muzzleloader tags are becoming more and more plentiful around here. So I'd like to get in the game. I've shot a few but, my knowledge is sparse. I haven't decided on whether to go traditional or modern inline so I'd like opinions on both.

    On the traditional side the CVA Mountain Hunter has really caught my eye. All blued steel and nice looking wood. It's also relatively light compared to other traditional style rifles, which is important to me. Are there any other options out there for a rifle in this style?

    [​IMG]

    I'm also not very familiar with the ignition system on traditional muzzleloaders. Can pyrodex pellets be used in these? Are sabots and conical slugs used or just round ball? What kind of lock time do these things have?

    On the inline side I've looked at Knight, CVA, Savage, Winchester, TC, H&R and Remington. I really like the removable action feature on the Knight Revolution. I also really like it's resemblance the 1885 falling block action. I would lean towards a falling or break action as opposed to a bolt action, just for aesthetics.

    Any other insights would be appreciated.
     
  2. {I'm also not very familiar with the ignition system on traditional muzzleloaders. Can pyrodex pellets be used in these? Are sabots and conical slugs used or just round ball? What kind of lock time do these things have?

    On the inline side I've looked at Knight, CVA, Savage, Winchester, TC, H&R and Remington. I really like the removable action feature on the Knight Revolution.}

    You should be able to use any pre-charged pellets in these, depending on the ignition "capabilities", but the best bet would be straight BP which is what most non-inline styles MZL are designed for. Inlines using a #11 cap or 209 iginition can handle these ( pellets ) with no problems. Since this is a more older "traditional" style it would best be suited with BP and the pellets should be avoided.

    As far as conical or sabot or plain balls, whats the rifling? Patch & Balls don't fair to good with fast rifling. So check the specs out real closely. MOst will tell you a 1 in 60 or slower would be best for ball&patch. You can get by with a 1 in 40ish with most conicals and sabot just fine.

    The inlines you mention are quite good. I have a few CVA, used to owned a winchester and Knight and they will kill most of anything within 100yrds in the lower 48states with ease.
     

  3. Hunterjbb

    Hunterjbb

    379
    0
    Feb 7, 2003
    Midlothian Va.
    may want to check out the lymans.. I have a Great plains in .50 and it's very nice.. strictly BP and patch and ball though and it's not overly light.. But Lyman has another model that may math up with what your looking for.

    I got into BP because it's a little more challenging, why would i want to purchase an inline with a scope shooting 350 grain bullets into a 2" group at 100 yds... of course depending on your local hunting rules that maybe the only way to go..

    You'll hear a fair amount of agrument between the traditionalist and the more modern BP shooters..

    if you really want a challenge go Flint lock.. I can't shoot them worth a darn..

    Rate of twist in the barrel will determine projectile capabilities.

    Stick with the traditional patch & ball.. get back to your roots.. lol..

    good luck.
     
  4. VonFatman

    VonFatman

    222
    0
    Jul 31, 2000
    Kansas City
    First of all, I don't hunt the black powder season to "find my roots"...I hunt it to extend my hunting season. I bought an in-line to achieve this...I bought one that was EASY (this was VERY important to me) to clean and reliable out to 100 yards (also very important to me).

    I'm NOT a traditional hunter nor do I have any desire to "go traditional"...I do not use real black powder or patch & ball and my gun is set up with peep sights and a composite stock.

    I certainly appreciate those who enjoy "primitive" hunting and in no way am I downplaying their sport. I think what they do is a totally different sport...it's what they do and I support them doing it! (unlike a great many "traditionalists" who would "ban" in-lines during the "black powder season").

    If you don't have a problem using a "modern" muzzleloader...

    I have a CVA "Staghorn" (a $79.00 in-line 50 cal) This gun has been "upgraded" by CVA to a new model...not sure of the name, but it's w/in $20.00 of the Staghorn. Wal-Mart sells them in a kit w/cheap scope or you can buy the bare-bones gun.

    I installed a Williams peep sight (I do not do well with the factory sights and the factory spacing of fixed sights on most modern muzzleloaders...they are too close together for me to use...old eyes I guess) and I also installed a new front sight on my gun (to match up with the sighting elevation of the new Williams peep).

    Once I got the gun's sights changed to my liking, I found that I can drill 3-4" groups off my bench at 100 yards all day long using the inexpensive 235gr Cabela's "brand" sabots...
    My gun can use either traditional caps or shotgun shell primers for ignition...as you might have guessed, I opted for the 209 primers....much more reliable and out of the weather for more reliable ignition.

    Low-end CVA's are inexpensive and seem to work pretty darn good. If you are new to muzzle loading...perhaps investing in a $100 gun is the way to start out...you can upgrade if you feel the desire later...if it turns out you don't enjoy it like you thought you would, you are not out 3-600 dollars on a gun. You can turn your $100 gun into a $50 loss.

    Do I like my current (inexpensive gun)? If you offered to trade me out of my Staghorn for an Omega, Knight, etc....I'd let you keep your upper-end gun(s). Mine is so easy to clean and use I don't desire or need anything different. My CVA is what my dad refers to as a "meat gun".

    Good luck!

    Bob
     
  5. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

    1,680
    0
    Jul 23, 2001
    Cochise County, AZ
    Thanks fellas. I've been reading and reading on this and have decided to go with the Knight Revolution for starters.

    The more I've read the more I'm interested in a traditional sidelock, but there seems to be a whole lot more to it, so I'm going to hold off until I can study it more. I'm leaning more towards building a kit gun like those from Track of the Wolf.

    Thanks again for the insights.
     
  6. I know of a few people that hav ebought these kits and built their own. They are nice, just check for all of the pcs and when you have all done, invest in a patriot wooden ram rod to wrapped everything up. I've been looking at building a percussion cap shotgun kit.
     
  7. Sixgun_Symphony

    Sixgun_Symphony NRA4EVR

    1,508
    0
    Apr 16, 2002
    USA
    Then stick to your modern rifle season and stay the heck out of our special hunting season.
     
  8. MDT

    MDT Glock21Love

    170
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    Mar 24, 2003
    Claremore, OK
    Boy, I knew that was coming!;z

    In the voice of Rodney King..."can't we all jus' get along?!?"

    :) :)

    MDT
     
  9. I was wondering when SixGun was going to chime in.

    Like they're aren't enough deer to go around.
     
  10. tjpet

    tjpet

    1,843
    2
    May 14, 2001
    Utah-Idaho border
    Nothing wrong with a modern inline. Just use it during the season it really fits into - general rifle.
     
  11. VonFatman

    VonFatman

    222
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    Jul 31, 2000
    Kansas City
    Hey SixGun,
    I feed them dang deer all year long...they over-brouse my farm, and are a real problem...we take does ONLY to thin the herd and work with our Conversation Dept. to figure ways to keep thinning them down...I pay property taxes on the land and spend weeks each year to put in acres of food plots. I pay hard cash every spring for the seed and the seedlings. I put in the seedlings to develop erosion control and wildlife buffer zones...I don't grow anything but wildlife. No cash crops of any kind. I donate the hay. I'm in the process of converting all the grasslands from fescue to warm season native prairies (at the cost of $100/acre) to take the land back to it's roots (kinda what I imagine you think you are doing in your chosen sport, which by the way I support and do not condemn) All we grow is deer, songbirds, turkey etc.

    Just out of curiosity, how much land do you OWN/care-take and how much time do YOU invest in other's land to promote wildlife and hunting (beyond buying black powder, flint and leggings).

    You see, even after your judgment on me (and I assume you would judge others who might not have your passion for "true black powder") I would not disdain your desires to hunt during "my" modern season. I'm glad you hunt and hope you do well.

    My reply was in response to the question posed by Mr. mpol777, member of Glocktalk, who asked for opinions regarding a gun, I suggest you might consider asking a few questions of folks before you dump on them. We’re all in this together. I support all ethical types of hunting during all legal seasons.

    Have a nice day.

    Bob
     
  12. mpol777

    mpol777 Feral Member

    1,680
    0
    Jul 23, 2001
    Cochise County, AZ
    Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest.

    ;cs all around :)
     
  13. VonFatman

    VonFatman

    222
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    Jul 31, 2000
    Kansas City
    No nest here. I like everybody.

    Bo
     
  14. {Then stick to your modern rifle season and stay the heck out of our special hunting season.}

    sixgun has hard on for anybody not using a orginal maple stock cut, tennesse flintlock mzl. He is so full of **** when it comes to muzzlelaoder and using them in a Muzzleloader season is unbelieveable. That why he think it's our season. ;Q

    Mpol, if you have a muzzleloader season like what we have here in Florida then anything that has a closed breech and loads from the muzzle end that fired a projectile or projectiles with BP or a subsitute is what works. Inlines included, along with their plastic/composite stocks.

    I remember a saying that was told to me a few years back when I got into muzzleloading," for ever flintlock muzzleloader sold about 20 inlines are sold".

    Companies like CVA & Knight made the common inline percussion mzl a big hit for this season.
     
  15. Michigun

    Michigun Miss Michigan?

    3,706
    11
    Mar 1, 2001
    Michigan, USA
    I don’t discriminate myself when it comes to Michigan’s muzzleloading season…

    … I use this highly customized/modified Leupold topped T/C Encore topped loaded with PowerBelts/Triple Seven…




    [​IMG]



    … or anyone of these handmade works by my father…



    [​IMG]



    ^c

    (My dad likes to say that a true traditionalist uses either a flint-lock, wheel-lock or match-lock… anything percussion is way too modern. ;))
     
  16. btw mpol, you are more than welcome to use anything in "our florida muzzleloader season".

    We don't discrimate either. Heck if you are brave enough to try a matchlock, more power to you. Ball -n- patch or conical or sabot, all are welcome. ;f
     
  17. VonFatman

    VonFatman

    222
    0
    Jul 31, 2000
    Kansas City
    noway,
    I admire you FL hunters...the heat and humidity!! Wow, you guys/gals must have to carry in your oun refridgeration to get the meat out of the woods w/o spoiling!

    More power to you!

    Michigun,
    Nice guns! Your dad had the "touch". Beautiful!

    Bob
     
  18. {I admire you FL hunters...the heat and humidity!! Wow, you guys/gals must have to carry in your oun refridgeration to get the meat out of the woods w/o spoiling!}

    It's hard but we get by. The humidty is one thing but the blood sucking mosquitoes is another thing. :(

    I do wish muzzleloading season wwas longer, it is one of the shortest season in all of our hunting seasons avg'ing 7-10days vrs archery which is normally 15-21 days. So you have to work very very hard to get get anything and normally I hunt on the weekend so I have just one weekend in our mzl season todo anything..

    Michigun, nice muzzleloaders. That blank looks nice, what is it ? Maple?
    ;)
     
  19. Michigun

    Michigun Miss Michigan?

    3,706
    11
    Mar 1, 2001
    Michigan, USA
    Ah, but none of those are technically mine (I have access to them, but not mine to do with what I please)... well not yet anyways, they will be all one day, but that day hopefully won’t be anytime soon if ya catch my drift! ;)

    "Had"? He's still does as far as I'm concerned! ;f

    Seriously my father is still building right along… he's currently working on a nice “beater” flint-lock for me to abuse while whitetail hunting... no frills, just the basics. ^c After that he’s supposed to be building me a nice “beater” smoothbore flint-lock so I have something to use for pheasant/small game & waterfowl hunting, which is more abusive on a firearm then just about any other kind of hunting. ;)

    Thank you for the compliment & I will surly pass the kind words along to my father. ^c

    (FYI, sometime I’ll have to get a group picture of all of his builds together… the picture above is only about 50% complete… not pictured is his wheel-lock, any of his pistols, a few more smoothbores, a few more rifles & a SWEET 2 rifle/2 pistol matching set (with case) with “screw-off” barrels. He has about 2 dozen complete kits that he’s put together (not built) as well over the years & a bunch more non-complete kits around… he’s also into scrimshaw (he built that powderhorn pictured), knifes, tomahawks & pretty much all things of that era, he even sews his own historically accurate clothes! Yup, our family vacations used to be centered around reenactments, parades, annual trips to York Town & anything else he could talk my mother into. :))

    Thank you sir & yes; I do believe it is maple. (FYI, ALL of the ML’s above started out like that blank.)
     
  20. VonFatman

    VonFatman

    222
    0
    Jul 31, 2000
    Kansas City
    Michigun,
    Your dad is an artist!!

    Bob