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More Fuel for the Fire ...

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by CW Mock, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. CW Mock

    CW Mock

    Feb 4, 2006
    As advertised ... a little more fuel for the fire. Here is the entire dashcam from the FHP car in the Cop vs Cop pissing contest, er pursuit ... Put it here because there are like 4-5 million threads already, so what is one more?

    Changes a lot of things, and answers a few questions in my mind. Including ... what sounds like being ordered to stand down TWICE, and still continuing pursuit anyways. Where I work, you have crossed into serious discipline or termination territory for disobeying a direct order like that one.

    The asshatter must have had a booming month in October.
  2. OLY-M4gery


    Nov 7, 2001
    Southern WI
    If you are going so fast lights + siren that your supervisors are requesting you terminate, it also says something about the no lights + siren driving that preciptated the event.

    If she was stopping a marked car, that was going into a call "tactical", or for a small amount over the speed limit, she would in the wrong.

    But, going 120 mph to get to an off duty job, weaving in an out of traffic, oblivious or ignoring the lit up police car on your tail, then you are clearly in the wrong.

    She followed him for at least 7 miles, and Troopers always have hats.

    His driving was witnessed by dozens of people, that day, and probably lots of other days. Those people may now have a different view of police due to the driving they witness.

    It also makes it more likely that police adminidtrators will put video systems that automatically come one when a certain speed is exceeded. Or other (idiotic) rules regarding speeds when driving a department car.

  3. PinkoCommie

    PinkoCommie Unusual Member

    The solution the Trooper came up with may have been far from perfect. This should not be about taking apart her performance, though. We always call BS when a thug does something that makes the police come up with a less-than-perfect, but effective solution and the press calls the police out on it instead of focusing on the fact that it was what the thug did that brought about the result. Let's not do the same here. Let's, instead, focus on the fact that it was the moron who was going 120mph to an off-duty gig that caused the problem.

    Might there be a better way to handle things next time? Sure. Did the trooper bring the asshattery to a stop as quickly as she could? Yes, she did. If she was called off (I can't hear the sound in the video very well), she should face her own consequences. Two wrongs don't make a right. We are law enforcement officers. We play by the rules. We may ***** and moan about the stupid rules, because they often are stupid. When the time comes, though, the difference between us and them is that we play by the rules.
  4. CW Mock

    CW Mock

    Feb 4, 2006
  5. CW Mock

    CW Mock

    Feb 4, 2006
    I agree with the above by the way, I just wanted to make more trouble. I wanted to see the whole video to try and see WTF happened, or at least a better, non "doctored" version. At least it gives a little more perspective on what happened that morning.

    OLY ... I agree with the part about police driving. I think all of us have run pretty quick places with no lights or sirens on, and thankfully a lot of people (at least in my area) have assumed we have had a good reason for doing it. Crap like this makes that really tough.

    There is an agency near me that mandates that their people run the lights and wailer any time they are above the posted speed limit, a knee jerk IIRC in response to a crash one of their guys got into trying to get to a call or catch a traffic violator that resulted in a fatality.
  6. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

    Mar 26, 2003
    I am not a cop. Watching this video, or reading any of the 1/2doz threads that have spawned are as much fun back in the 70s watch my dad beat the crap outta my mom.

    Seems to me those who would nit pick at what the trooper said ("Miami cars fly thru here all the time....I thought maybe this rig was stolen, like on tv yesterday...") are the things a normal, rational person would say to someone after the fact.

    While I may not be a sworn law enforcement officer, I know enough about police procedure to figure out yes, she could have handled this 100 different ways, but this event was triggered by the guy doing 80+ mph and who repeatedly ignored the brights behind him.

    I also know that for the most part, the general consensus is, if this was a cop-non cop interaction, the overwhelming majority of LE respondents to the various threads would have voiced an opinion along the lines of "I wasn't there, I'm not going to 2nd guess another officer". (of course Dragoon will always be blunt, Spade will always be circumspect, wise and measured in his responses, etc etc).

    The easiest thing to do is to chalk it up to another day and move on with life. **** happens. She didn't start it. Yes, maybe her tactics can be brought under the bright lights. Yes, maybe it was a bit untoward for her to cuff the officer in full uniform in a marked unit. Yes, he was composed, apologetic and very cooperative.

    Sometimes we (all of us) need to take a second and pause, to reflect on the purpose of our occupation(s), and the expectations of our community and our superiors. We are all answerable to someone else.

    Often times we are so wrapped up in what we do we momentarily lose sight of that. She is going to have to "justify" her actions, and he will have to justify his.

    What was very bad about my (step)dad beating my mom was, we lived in a single family tenement yard housing 5+ families. Nothing there was private.

    This video, and the corresponding threads has induced the same type of flinch in me.

  7. GD2J

    GD2J GoDirectly2Jail

    Feb 25, 2006
    The Old Dominion
    I read on a Florida-based LE forum that Trooper Watts was told to Cancel on the radio, and she disregarded her supervisor's order.
  8. Dukeboy01

    Dukeboy01 Pretty Ladies!

    Apr 30, 2000
    Lexington, KY
    If this is true, then she should be brought up on charges and disciplined as well. IMO, she should be as severely punished for disobeying a direct order in this situation as the Miami officer should be for driving like an idiot and failing to pull over immediately when the trooper turned her lights on.

    The fact of the matter is that both of those clowns have brought dishonor on the profession and I would find it super- sweet if they were both terminated.
  9. merlynusn


    Nov 16, 2007
    We have one of those dumb policies that if we exceed the speed limit (even 1mph) we have to have our lights and sirens on. It's just a CYA thing for the agency.

    Our cameras come on automatically when we hit 80mph... We have GPS in all our cars and they can determine speed from those as well.
  10. Dukeboy01

    Dukeboy01 Pretty Ladies!

    Apr 30, 2000
    Lexington, KY
    Okay, I just watched the video up until the Miami clown finally stopped. Here are a few observations:

    1. Screw both of them. They should both be terminated.
    2. Yes, the Miami officer started it. Again, screw him. Fire him.
    3. The FHP radio audio for the first three minutes is lousy. Based upon what I see and later radio transmissions that can be heard, it seems pretty clear to me that she was told to terminate about three minutes into the pursuit. She cuts the lights and sirens and...
    4. continues to pursue without lights and sirens just as fast as she was pursuing before, cutting through traffic, passing vehicles on the right, and driving just as illegally (at that point) and just as stupidly as the Miami officer was.

    Unacceptable. Yes, the Miami officer was a danger to everyone else on the roadway. When she disobeyed a direct order and continued her pursuit without the benefit of the use of emergency equipment, she was twice as dangerous to the general public as he was. Why? Because she was pissed off and driving angry because some jackwagon local yokel didn't respect her authority as a high and mighty state popo.

    Screw her sideways with a chainsaw. "Terminate your pursuit" means... you f'ing terminate your pursuit. You stop. The one you were chasing gets away. It does not mean "keep chasing the suspect without the benefit of the emergency equipment you are required by law to use when you are chasing a suspect."

    And her weaselly radio traffic when she finally does catch up to him at around five minutes into. "Uh, I'm behind that vehicle again. He slowed down for some reason..."

    BULL****, honey. If she'd slowed down to 75 or 80 mph when she turned off the light show and really had happened to legitimately catch up to him when he was slowed by traffic, I'd give her a pass. But that's not what happened and the video proves it. She continued to drive at an extremely high and illegal rate of speed for approximately two minutes until she caught him when he was slowed by traffic. If I was her supervisor she would have been relieved of duty twenty seconds after I saw her continue driving at anything more than the posted speed limit after the three minute mark in that video.

    Ugh. Like I said they both deserve to be punished, but I'd be lying if a huge part of me doesn't hope that the Miami officer ultimately gets to keep his job after a hefty unpaid suspension while the trooper loses hers.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  11. Mayhem like Me

    Mayhem like Me Semper Paratus

    Mar 13, 2001
    Not a chance
    I wouldl like to see proof before I chastize her.
    The Miami officer on the other hand I have seen all I need of that Jackwagon, he caused this roller coaster he pays for the ride..
  12. Dukeboy01

    Dukeboy01 Pretty Ladies!

    Apr 30, 2000
    Lexington, KY
    Go watch the video linked in this thread if you haven't already. Civilians might not see it, and the media is spinning the story to make the Miami officer the villian, but those of us who have driven lights and sirens in pursuits or just to emergency calls know the rules for running code. The trooper breaks all of them.

    The radio audio for the first three minutes of the video is terrible. Based on your training and (more importantly) your experience, what does it usually mean when the lights and sirens go on for a minute or more, accompanied by sudden and continuous acceleration, and then the lights and sirens suddenly go off before the officer catches up to a vehicle or reaches a location?

    In my world it means somebody was told to terminate a pursuit or to disregard a call. The use of lights and sirens was no longer legally justified.

    Furthermore, when the audio gets better about five minutes into the video, it seems pretty clear to me that she was told to terminate. After she "reinitiates" the pursuit (which isn't really what happened, because she never really terminated the pursuit) the supervisor starts to tell her to get the car's property number and then terminate. It's at that point that the Miami officer pulls over.

    She is ultimately just as wrong as the Miami officer, IMO. When she disobeyed a direct order to terminate the pursuit, she drove just as recklessly and illegally as the Miami officer because she couldn't let it go. She deserves a citation for her driving between 3 and 5 minutes of the video.
  13. collim1

    collim1 Shower Time!

    Mar 14, 2005
    We have had more than one officer tote days for this exact thing. As bad as it sucks, if the Sgt tells me to terminate I have no choice. Just to CYA I stop, turn around and travel in the opposite direction for a few with the camera still on on emergency equipment off. After a few incidents the Sgt will always review your video to see if you really did terminate immediately.

    If it aint a bank robbery or a murder suspect we usually aint chasing for very long.
  14. Dukeboy01

    Dukeboy01 Pretty Ladies!

    Apr 30, 2000
    Lexington, KY
    I just watched it again. Again the audio is bad, but she's told to terminate at around 2:52 into the video. She cuts her lights first and then the siren.

    Here's the fun thing: She then accelerates. Listen to the engine as it revs up. I would estimate, based upon my experience, that she was doing 90 mph or so with the lights on. She guns it up to 120 mph plus after being told to quit.

    Don't agree? Look at the video starting at about 2:08 - 2:18 and compare the relative rate at which she passes a line of cars to her right, including a beverage truck. Then skip to 3:56- 4:06 and compare how fast she's moving without her emergency equipment as she passes cars to her left, including a white Escalade.

    She should be fired. The Miami officer should be fired as well, but the trooper definitely needs to go.
  15. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Apr 30, 2005
    If the trooper was told to terminate the pursuit then she should face the appropriate discipline for refusing to comply with the order and insubordination. (Which would typically be termination.)

    The Miami officer should be fired.

    1. He just proved he uses poor judgment.

    2. He also just demonstrated that he is more than willing to break the law if he perceives that doing so is a benefit to him personally.

    Ok I just watched the video at least up to the point he finally pulled over. There were at least to instances when she was right on him lights and siren running and his response was to accelerate away.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  16. Mayhem like Me

    Mayhem like Me Semper Paratus

    Mar 13, 2001
    Not a chance
    She is not "just as wrong"
    She violated internal policy/order she will be disciplined on that ..

    HE violated nuemerous state laws including putting a FELLOW OFFICERS LIFE IN DANGER as she pursued him, quite frankly I am stunned that some of you are trying to defend him.
    It was clear to me he accelerated away from her at least twice while she was on him...We would be pitting him at my agency I can tell you that, we would also know , as she did, that he was not running to anything that could be considered a legitimate emergency.
  17. JohnnyReb

    JohnnyReb Lifetime Member

    Sep 20, 2004

    I can deal with an officer that exceeds the speedlimit, is honest about it, and can take his lumps like a man. The Miami officer should be disciplined in my eyes, but not terminated.

    The Trooper should be terminated for disobeying a direct order from a superior. This is a far greater problem in my eyes.

    My opinion, take it for what its worth.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  18. DaBigBR

    DaBigBR No Infidels!

    Oct 28, 2005
    Circling the wagons.

  19. When I heard, in so many words, "he slowed down and I caught back up", it makes me wonder what her report contained. If her report reflects those same words, that may very well be the last nail in the lid.
  20. bobdat


    Jul 27, 2007
    Uppa U.S.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013