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Missoula Match

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by JonInWA, Jul 12, 2008.

  1. JonInWA

    JonInWA

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    I just shot the Missoula match today (Saturday)-my first GSSF match for 2008, since the demise of Roseburg (which had been in June).

    It's a smaller match than the others I've shot (the afore-mentioned Roseburg {which wasn't a huge one either}, Albany, and Shelton/Bremerton). I was one of the first shooters, and found the facility to be very nicely set up and run. Excellent RO'ing all around.

    There was no side/warm-up match, so I just started out on the plates, since 1)I've been shooting a lot of steel plate matches lately, and 2)the plates, due to their 4 strings of fire are usually where logjams develop later as more shooters progress to them. I would have preferred a warm-up, but all went well.

    Dave, the Glock Sales Rep/Armorer was a welcome face, so we chatted and he provided some spring upgrades/replacements for me, as well as switching out my grooved trigger for a smooth one on my G19.

    The local host club had no lunch concession, so bring your own-but there was a nice picnic area adjacent to the registration area. GSSF also provided a nice collection of patches, pins, Glock Reports, and Annuals for the taking.

    As usual, I had a very pleasent time talking with other GSSF members and sharing tips and techniques.

    All in all, it was a nice match-even with the Armorer ministrations, I easily (and leisurely) finished before 1 pm, shooting 3 divisions. Since my wife and I had an excellent road trip from the Seattle area to Missoula, we plan on reprising in 2009. Many thanks to the host club, RO's and Cindy from GSSF. Now on to Albany and Bremerton!

    Best, Jon
     
  2. HeGlock

    HeGlock flyshooter

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    We drove from Coeur d'Alene to Missoula for the match today. 3 hour drive on I-90 along beautiful trout streams filled with trout fishermen and surrounded by majestic mountains. The range is cut into the side of a mountain and sometime during the match they called my name to shoot but I was too busy to notice as I was captivated by the mountainside 4,000 feet above me. What a place. As Joe said, the match was lightly attended. Economy? Gas Prices? Both contributed is my bet. I missed fast enough to lose and shot an 89 in subcompact. About 30 seconds of penalties! UGH My wife shot an 84 in Am Civ and needled me the whole ride back to CDA about kicking my butt.
     

  3. glockess56

    glockess56 CLM

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    Good shooting Robin Siverts. That is a fine score and great High Adult Female. Great score! I was curious that in major-sub and master stock, no master shot the match. Not one * was beside anyone's name and I know there were masters out there. Wonder why they didn't shoot MS?
     
  4. HeGlock

    HeGlock flyshooter

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    Thanks for the notice Glockess! I just called my wife and she was quite excited. If you look at subcompact you'll see the other Siverts with an asterisk. The winner was an amateur. But you're right, I didn't see any others!

    I think GSSF has a couple of things working against them in the master department. One, I think the economy is going to cut down on attendance. Between gas and ammo costs, it's getting unbearable for many. Second, they need a "GM" category. Once the "average joe" has made Master, the odds of ever winning again are so slim that it drives out anyone from competing. I've heard it time and time again from the average joes that there's no way to beat the true Grand Masters so why throw the money at it? Success in GSSF was born of a broad base of winners. I think they need to bring back the ABC categories and get rid of the random. AND, I too think they need a Grand Master catetory so that they will again spread the wealth. I don't think those ordinary Masters are whining, they just know their limitations and act accordingly.

    Thoughts?
     
  5. lethal tupperwa

    lethal tupperwa

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    "why throw money?"

    As Norske has explained many times

    If you get x masters (and I think the number is 10)

    It throws in a random gun prize.

    Norske if I have that wrong correct it for me.
     
  6. JonInWA

    JonInWA

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    Ken, in the last year or two we've gone over the Glock awards system round and round in several threads. To their credit, GSSF listened, and incorporated many (if not most) of the more cogent of the recommendations that came up. Key changes were the revised awards structure which does put in place an equitable series of awards for both smaller and larger matches, so that the smaller matches (like Missoula) will continue to have "draw" and a chance to grow.

    I understand your frustration regarding "masters" versus "Super Masters." I don't really have a good solution. I think that this year will be an interesting year-and I agree with you that the economy and gas prices will have a noticable impact on GSSF attendance. Hopefully, more competitors will do as you and Robin (and my wife and I) do-combine GSSF match attendance with family vacations. Missoula was a great area to exercise that concept.

    My personal hobby horse in terms of further structure revision would be allowing competitors to compete up to three times in the same division, as opposed to the current one time restriction. That would allow, in my opinion, a more realistic competition for one's money-but I'll also admit that, for example, in Missoula, it would have for all practical purposes probably eliminated the Master Stock division's population.

    Whether GSSF re-institutes the Lewis awards system with its ABC ranking cut-offs or retains the current random awards system is really more a matter of semantics than anything else. Realistically, both are random awards systems, but I'll admit that there might be more personal pride achieved with a "B" win than a random pistol win. Personally, I'm quite pleased with the awards system innovations and Amateur/Master dual awards system that GSSF incorporated.

    We'll just have to see how the rest of the year goes. Missoula was a great match, and a great location, but probably of limited value in terms of drawing conclusions regarding structure analysis/change for GSSF as a whole due to the relatively small turn-out.

    Best, Jon
     
  7. HeGlock

    HeGlock flyshooter

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    Jon:
    I respectfully disagree that there isn't any difference between the Lewis System ABC and the random system of prize awarding. I believe that the Lewis system gives registrant "bragging rights." Doesn't 1st place in C class sound better than 87th? Psychologically I think it gives people more to talk about and a more identifiable target for improvement. Never underestimate the power of "bragging rights"...you don't get the same viral excitement from a random gun prize that you do from ABC. IMHO of course. I think the best thing that GSSF could do is to talk to long time GSSF members who are no longer attending and/or are shooting fewer classes. I think it would be most telling.
     
  8. JonInWA

    JonInWA

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    Ken, believe me, I understand where you're coming from. It's a tough question; I think that what drives GSSF is their interpretation of who their target audience is, and what would resonate most effectively with them-and by "resonate" I mean what would most effectively reeinforce their identification with Glock, to include future Glock use, product advocacy, and future/additional Glock purchases.

    By my observation, there are several groups participating in GSSF. One is new shooters/new Glock owners/social shooters and their families/significant others/friends. This group seeks to improve their shooting in a very user-friendly environment, where there are easily understood, non-threatening courses of fire, where the challenge is skill-building with the Glock, as opposed to having to decode/game the courses of fire. These shooters are likely to be using GSSF as their first foray into the shooting sports.

    The second group is comprised of more experienced shooters, and use GSSF as a competitive (and comparative) platform for developing and tracking their shooting skills, and competing with others. This group is probably the most likely to be repeat GSSF participatants, and is likely to utilize the GSSF Armorer on a regular basis for check-ups and upgrades. There is both a competitive and a social aspect to this group regarding their participation in GSSF.

    The third group are GSSF Masters-and I agree with you, a case can be made for there being both "GSSF Masters" and "GSSF Super Masters." (and let's not forget the Glockmeisters/Gunny Challenge Participants). There does seem to be a dividing line between those who make Master, and once doing so, remain at the bottom of the Master pool....due to the Super Masters. There is a huge amount of camerarderie in these groups, and their motivation for participation in GSSF seems for them to be a combination of both the competitive and social. I would suspect that they are the least likely to use the Armorer services, due to either their innate skills, or the skills of their personal gunsmith. However, since the Armorers are often Glock Regional Reps, there are definite lines of communications kept open and encouraged.

    I really think that GSSF has grappled with these issues and groups quite well, opening up further divisions to Masters, but simultaneously incorporating a dual/parallel Amateur/Master awards system in many divisions. This incentivizes further Master participation, without demoralizing Amateurs concurrently competing in the division.

    Can the "Super Masters" dominate? Sure. Can a well funded "Super Master" dominate in multiple GSSF matches? Sure. But is there a better solution? Potentially-perhaps through the creation of a "Super Master" class, after a Master achieves a certain amount of wins, where they would be competing against their "Super Master" peers.

    I just don't see GSSF coming to any modifications until the end of the 2008, and possibly the 2009 season. Quite frankly, there has to be enough quantifiable numbers in the population pool to enable GSSF, and Glock Professional, and Glock Inc. to be able to meaningfully analyize and extrapolate, and adjust the program accordingly as desired-in concert with Glock Inc's marketing plans.

    To get back to the basic question your raised, though. For the first group, I think that the program with the most appeal would be the current one, with the random gun awards as currently provided.

    The second group would probably prefer a Lewis Award structure, as they're more competitive, but still want the incentivization of an award based as least ostensibly on performance rather than pure randomness.

    The third group would probably want to keep the current structure, although arguably there really would be no difference for them as to which program is put in place, and they're incentivized primarily by pure performance.

    As always, discussions like these are interesting, and I think are helpful for us and to GSSF in fleshing out and refining our sport.

    Best, Jon
     
  9. WIG19

    WIG19 Light left on

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    Been there, done both & got the T-shirt to prove it. Having also achieved several placings as a 'senior bride$maid' I can tell you I absolutely had no problem enjoying a random gun win, since the cash always comes home to my CFO. :supergrin:

    Besides, think of all the threads we'd have to rehash with the Lewis system, convincing people that there's no real way for them to shoot bad enough to predictably "back up" into B-class. :rofl:

    At least I know how I can become eligible for a random award; simply enter and shoot. ;)
    Missoula's been around more than once now, hope it grows and I hope to make it someday or fit it into the schedule, although 2600 miles r/t would be a full vacation, saved for perhaps at expense of other matches already attended. Have been to a couple inaugural matches and seen them grow; only way that happens regardless of system is for them to be attended. Cost of doing so will impact that.

    GSSF prize/class structure ain't perfect but it seems to be working. An issue with having a GM class is this: Would there then be enough "normal" Master-class shooters to make that class pay better than it is now if you took the hypothetical GM's out?

    Good luck Missoula!

    :patriot:
     
  10. Alderak

    Alderak

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    an interesting side-effect of the missoula match being so small is that the competition in the civilian and competition categories was a lot more fierce than in the master stock and unlimited categories

    bet a lot of us out there wish we had known that last week :cool:


    1st place in master stock was like 97 seconds...
    much easier to beat that out than to try to score in the low 60s.
     
  11. gary newport

    gary newport

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    I started shooting GSSF when the Lewis system was in place. About the second or third match, I decided that, if I couldn't shoot good enough to win in A class, I'd try to shoot just badly enough to win in B! It almost worked; I placed next-to-last in A, just one shooter between me and that B win. :embarassed:

    After that experience, I decided just to shoot as good as I could -- and then GSSF changed the prize distribution anyway. The random awards may be the ONLY way I'll win a Glock, so I like the current system. However, I haven't won a Glock yet!
     
  12. MTglk43

    MTglk43 MTglk43

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    I want to thank everyone that attended the Missoula match, This was our third year and all of us are hoping that GSSF comes to Missoula next year. All of the staff and I really appreciate all of the out of town folks that spent the time and $'s to be here...........it was a great pleasure seeing many familiar faces and names. Cindy and the factory support is fantastic and ......wow, is she fast at getting the results up on the web site.

    Thank you again..........and we really hope to see all of you in 2009...........in Missoula....or somewhere............

    Paul Miner
     
  13. Pat S

    Pat S Millennium Member

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    I'll second that! If only.....

    Pat
     
  14. Pat S

    Pat S Millennium Member

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    Paul,

    Thanks! It was a good shoot your club and GSSF put on. Also, congrats on your shooting performance in Sub and Major Sub. It's always an enjoyable drive over and back from Idaho. Western Montana is beautiful country to behold.

    Pat