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Martial Arts and Glocks

Discussion in 'The Martial Arts Forum' started by wolf82362, Sep 19, 2005.

  1. wolf82362


    Aug 30, 2005
    O.K. I am trained in Jeet Kune Do and Karate and have been contemplating how a blend of martial arts and conceiled carry would play out in a real self defense situation. I do believe that neither a gun or martial arts can gaurentee saftey but was thinking both might be tough to beat. Say for instance someone rushes at you before you can draw, a front kick would clear him away from you and give you an instant to draw your weapon etc. Any additional thoughts?
  2. habu3


    Aug 17, 2005
    Northern VA
    Interesting idea. I've been training in multiple arts for a while including Goju, TKD, HapKiDo and a lot of hand-to-hand stuff in my early military days. Our Dojo trains like that a lot. If you think about it, a lot of protective service personnel are trained like that but it isn't for everyone.

    One thing to remember...If you have it on you it can be taken away from you and used against you. The other thing to think about is whether or not you are mentally up to using a handgun. Throwing kicks, punches, and locks at your assailant is one thing, but it is a lot different to aim and fire a weapon at a person.

  3. Roundeyesamurai

    Roundeyesamurai Sensei Member

    Jul 15, 2004
    Upstate New York
    I'm afraid there's no delicate way to convey my experiences on the matter, so please forgive me if anyone finds some of my statements objectionable.

    The primary problem I see with "integration", is a lack of competencies on the part of those desiring to "integrate" skills. When I see posts to this effect, what I am seeing (subtextually) is "I need a specific body of techniques which employ the multitude of skills I want to use"- to put it another way, it says "I think on a purely technical level, and therefore, I need to be shown precisely how to employ all of my skills at once". The competency needed to understand how these different skills fit together doesn't come from technical ability- it comes from conceptual understanding, which is a product of extensive experience in the subject at hand.

    The result of such thinking, is rather absurd attempts to "show off" the knife, gun, and unarmed skills all at once. An example of this, is a certain "name" firearms trainer, who altered a pistol flashlight method to employ a knife, rather than a flashlight. The idea was easy enough to understand- pistol in one hand, knife in the other- but the concept wasn't really "integrative", it was just a trite way of showing off the knife and the gun at once.

    The next-largest problem I see, is the desire to "integrate" skills which really don't integrate well. An example of this, is the desire to "integrate" firearm, knife, stick, and unarmed striking skills- these bodies of skills are not "complimentary" to one another, they are simply substitutes for one another. It is very much like saying "I want to 'integrate' granulated sugar, Sweet N' Low, Equal, and Splenda". Here again, the desire to demonstrate all of one's skill areas in one succinct motion- rather than a desire to simply conclude the confrontation in an efficient manner.

    I would advise that you blatantly examine your own motives- are you seeking to come up with a new venue to demonstrate the product of your training? Are you seeking to simply "put together" all of your previous training (which would indicate that your previous training never exceeded the mere technical realm)? Are you looking to gain experience which relates to your training? What ultimate purpose do you want to come from this?

    If the answers to the above questions are unclear, continue reading:

    I have stated in other threads, and will restate here, that "integration" is at its best when complimentary skills are applied to one another. An example of this, is my essential list of skills for the police officer:

    1) Skills intended to control persons (when a weapon is inappropriate);
    2) Skills intended to be employed when insufficient time or space is afforded to access the weapon;
    3) Skills which fill the role of a substitute for the weapon (when the weapon can't be carried, or malfunctions).

    Obviously, methods of striking with the hands fill the bill for number 3, and may be satisfactory for number 2; conversely, methods of grappling fill the bill for number 1, and may be satisfactory for number 2.

    The real "integration" is to understand that the primary means of combat is armed combat, and to understand that unarmed skills exist solely to be used when the weapon is inappropriate or inviable. Attempting to make the unarmed methods "equal" to armed methods (in other words, the usual thinking of "integration"), is like bringing the proverbial knife to a gunfight.

    EDIT TO ADD: An afterthought:

    Bruce Lee said "Let nature take its course, and your tools will strike at the proper moment".

    There is alot of wisdom in that statement.
  4. TED

    TED Millennium Member

    Jun 2, 1999
    Anchorage, AK, USA
    In my opionion, the use of a firearm and martial arts should focus on...weapon retention, disarming a gun from the other guy, strikes at extreme close quarters to allow you to draw and employ the firearm, and using the weapon as a bludgeon. I think that that is all that you can hope for.

    BTW, Roundeye, the reason I have not yet asked you to call is because I am on dayshift and the lady is on night shift and we both are busier than hell. I am at work right now in fact. There has not been any free time when I have been at home at a decent hour for anyone to call and then even if there were, she is generally sleeping at the time, and you do NOT want to wake the dragon when she is sleeping (pure evil I tell you, and a VERY light sleeper).

  5. Roundeyesamurai

    Roundeyesamurai Sensei Member

    Jul 15, 2004
    Upstate New York
  6. wolf82362


    Aug 30, 2005
    It is interesting that round eye quotes Bruce Lee as Jeet Kune Do is indeed Bruce Lees art! The purpose of my post was simply to explore the issue of "tools in the toolbox" and HOW TO TRAIN when to use them and how. Bottom line, if someone shows intention to kill me or my family I will shoot them and worry about prison/lawsuits later. Having said that, truth is I have ended most fights/attacks before they started therefore using my best weapon (brain) FIRST.

    I am not in law enforcement or the professional protection buisness or the military. I am just an average citizen who has a way above average interest in martial arts, firearms and personal and family protection.

    Let me rephrase my thoughts. For home defense I could buy an alarm, a German Shepard or guns. There are benefits and draw backs to all 3. (I choose the last two).

    I also understand that circumstances dictate the action. But, you tend to do in real situations as you train. Therefore I do not enter tournaments or engage in excessive sparring for that training is for self defense and personal growth only.

    Looking for specific thoughts from you all. Let me start off..I have a shoulder holstered g22 not because its the best way to conceil but because I am able to kick easily with this rig on as that often is my first response to a rushing assailant. See where I am coming from? I appreciate all of your comments thus far by the way...
  7. Roundeyesamurai

    Roundeyesamurai Sensei Member

    Jul 15, 2004
    Upstate New York
    Did you copy/paste this from the SCARS advertisement in Soldier Of Fortune magazine? It reads (I use that word loosely) almost identically! ;z
  8. AiKahrDo


    Aug 25, 2005
    Tampa, FL

    You are a well spoken aikidoka, and I suspect already that I would likely enjoy visiting your dojo one day, although I have never been to the NY area and have no current plans to get up there anytime soon, but I've officially put yours on the list to visit when the chance arises, with your permission of course. :)

    I really like your post above, especially this part:

    Well put.

    I saw the link to the ISR Matrix you put up. Very interesting.

    What do you think about this Krav Maga? I have a friend that got really into that. Without dissing the art, I have to admit it seemed very stiff and at the time seemed risky to use as it

    1. Relied on the element of surprise because
    2. I see no control of center and therefore surprise and strength is critical to success and
    3. self defeating if you are not really quick and accurate.
    4. Too many steps which leads back to #3.

    However, those were my first impressions, especially watching the DVD dealing with gun takeaway. One technique involved a "dirtbag" pointing a gun at a woman's abdomen James Bond style(elbow at side, forearm extended with PPK in right hand). Defense was as follows(from memory).

    a. Dirtbag and Nage remains square with feet planted. Nage leans to left(offline) while grabbing the slide of gun and pushes over to dirtbag's left.
    b. while in this awkward position, manages to punch dirtbag in face hard enough to distract him long enough for him to forget she has hold of his gun.
    c. then nage still holding the gun with left hand, reaches under the dirtbags right hand with her right hand and wrenches the gun from it by grabbing the back of the slide and pulling down while pushing up the "butt" of the grip.
    d. Steps back and points gun at dirtbag.

    All of this assuming that he also doesn't just lean left and continue pointing gun at her. Or of course a shihonage isn't applied with gun ending at her head before she reaches step #2. Or a quick nikkyo or sankyo with gun pointed at her face. I'm sure you can think of others, like a nice kokyu or even a koshi. The reversals are endless, all with nage ending up worse off than she started.

    Again, I'm not knocking it at all, because no art is perfect. I just like to ponder and explore scenarios, and that particular one concerns me for the soccer mom or female officer that tries that technique and is too slow against a large "dirtbag".

    C. Martin
  9. Roundeyesamurai

    Roundeyesamurai Sensei Member

    Jul 15, 2004
    Upstate New York
    Hey AiKahrDo-

    Thanks for the compliments!

    Krav Maga is, in and of itself, very decent as a combative method- presuming one doesn't go so far as to believe it is the "be-all-do-all". Like any other martial art, the practicality of it (or lack thereof) depends entirely on the instructor.

    Any discussion which contains words to the effect of "(Insert method) is the absolute best thing around", or conversely, "(Insert method) is a complete waste of time" is a fruitless discussion. Even more so, when such is made in an obvious attempt at marketing.
  10. SanduneCC

    SanduneCC Senior Member

    Sep 10, 2001
    Boondocks, USA
    Obviously you need to see this.
  11. wolf82362


    Aug 30, 2005
    Interesting posts! (and lol at the martial arts vs modern arts.)

    Had some additional thoughts..martial arts and guns or weopons of any sort, should feel like a natural extension of ones self. Then they will be employed in an instinctive and natural way..which would increase the speed of delivery and effectivness. Rehearsal in the mind as well as actual practice are essential.
  12. bluemeanie

    bluemeanie Lospeedhidrag

    I find that a lot of the things I learn in MA class blend in fine with the fact that I carry. Note that I don't speak from experience with deadly encounters, just as a 2-year student of MA and a CHL (CCW) license-holder for about 6 years. I've shot some competitive pistol matches and taken defensive handgun classes, along with developing a finely-tuned poop-filter on the internet message boards.

    I have started to see things that relate, such as: The chamber for many punches, holds and throws seems like a dandy gun retention position. Retention positions I've seen demonstrated bear this out.

    I think empty-hand skill + handgun skill= A good combo. Being able to move, punch, kick, evade and counter attacks rocks. I notice that I sort of reflexively make moves to protect my holstered pistol in jostling crowds or when I'm forced to be near people or groups I don't exactly trust.

    The skills I'm learning continue to combine with the instincts God already gave me. Someday I might try to codify the two, seek the endorsement of the Navy Seals and watch the money roll in. I doubt it though.

    :cool: Keep training
  13. wolf82362


    Aug 30, 2005
    Thanks for your post blue! My wife accuses me of being a wannabe Ninja spy..I told her only on the weekends as I can't afford to give up my regular benifits are too good! lol

    Martial arts teaches you to possess a much higher level of awareness...even this alone would be valuable, now add the fact that you have good defensive/offensive skills. I feel that some people may have an unrealistic feeling of security with their guns and I imagine the same for martial arts skills.

    Reality check though, what happens if you don't have a gun with you or the gun malfuctions? What happens if you try to do martial arts and the dude pulls a gun? (Indiana Jones! lol)

    Knowing the benifits and limitations of both PLUS practice ..REALISTIC practice are essential in my opinion!
  14. J.M.Towers

    J.M.Towers Metrogruntual

    Sep 1, 2003
  15. Bolt_Overide


    Jul 23, 2005
    While I have studied both jeet kun do, and akido, if it comes to violence I hate to say it but Im just going to shoot you. Here is my reasoning, Im too old to fist fight, I have no desire to do it. so if you are able to push me to violence, its because i genuinely beleive my life is in danger, and Im going to respond accordingly.

    Also, you just never know when some jackass that wants to fight has a weapon.. not worth brawling, too much chance of getting hurt bad or killed.
  16. Zenhachirou

    Zenhachirou BIG KILLA

    Oct 17, 2002
    In ya!
    Special Forces have been integrating knife, gun, empty-hand work for years. And police officers integrate guns and hand-to-hand combat every day. At any time, a ruckus can escalate to a crisis. A guy you're wrestling with can finally get his switchblade from his pocket, or maybe you're trying to keep two guys keep apart when one suddenly pulls a gun. What do you do then? Well, you transition from "hand" techniques to "gun" techniques.

    "Integration" doesn't have to mean "both at the same time." It means "knowing when to use what." Pistol-whipping? That's integration of hand-to-hand combat and gun combat right there.

    Now if somebody's pulled a gun on you, say they're standing ahead pointing it at your chest, it wouldn't be out of the question to attempt a good Krav Maga defense, like grabbing it around the barrel and misdirecting the first shot to your right side. As soon as you're out of the way, all you do is pull your sidearm in your right hand and blast him in the stomach from the hip.

    It's the same thing as incorporating knife + empty hand techniques. It can be done. Exploration and progression is the key to being a warrior.
  17. Minuteman

    Minuteman Jeff Gannon???

    Your jkd acadamey does not offer combined weapon/pistol defense? Inosanto acadamey?
    Mine does. Mostly it's cops and security.
    It just seems like common sense to me. If you carry a gun, you should be practiced at disarms, defendeing against disarms, grappling and other mixed use.
    I believe most cops are taught to "shove away" and "kick away" while drawing. Standing up, on the ground dominate and weak positions. Good basic skills.

  18. Roundeyesamurai

    Roundeyesamurai Sensei Member

    Jul 15, 2004
    Upstate New York

    Thank you for your very thoughtful reply.

    In regards to your examples of current integration:

    Military combatives of any sort don't so much "integrate" combatives. It's more like substitution- when a firearm runs out of ammunition, use the firearm as a bludgeon instead, or use a knife instead. If a knife or bludgeon isn't available, use an improvised weapon instead. If an improvised weapon isn't available, use your hands instead. You get the picture. In a military environment, this is common sense.

    The "integration" of firearms and unarmed measures by police officers follows precisely what I said above- skills which compliment the firearm. Again, this assemblage is common sense.

    Likewise, the use of unarmed measures to permit the acquisition of a weapon is precisely what I was referring to when I said "When the firearm is (...) inviable". This is also common sense.

    What I find objectionable, is when some people go to extreme measures to apply various skills in a manner which is excessively complicated. This is inefficient, and smacks of showmanship more than anything else. See my reference to the "name" instructor for an example of what I mean.

    Real "integration" is a matter of spontaneous creativity (in other words, "Thinking on one's feet". Naturally, various skills can be practiced together in order to get the feel of this sort of integration. However, one must caution against getting over-complicated. It's easy for the technically-minded to forsake efficiency for the sake of flashiness. Many persons who refer to themselves as "instructors" fall into this trap as well.
  19. Zenhachirou

    Zenhachirou BIG KILLA

    Oct 17, 2002
    In ya!
    What an ambiguous reply. Are you agreeing or not? ;f

    I've had enough exposure to police combatives to know that the concepts that some might call "integration" are really just clever methods to transition from one thing to another. The best technique I've learned from my "source", him being a veteran of 25 years, is a one-handed gun-cocking method for when your weak hand is tied up in the clinch with a suspect. Being able to rack a sidearm with one hand strikes me as being an invaluable skill, especially in the heat of a grappling session with a dangerous perp. Is this integration? To me, yes. It seems to me that this is a gun technique being employed while in the midst of what was previously a hand-technique battle.

    However in the big scheme of "technical" things, this technique might seem very basic. But integration can't really be more than playing connect-the-dots between different planes of combat, otherwise you get into that area that may be mostly style and very little substance. At least that's the way it seems to me. It's easy to draw lines from "knife to gun", or "empty-hand to knife to gun", but can you really COMBINE them? I would say no.