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Man Who Brought Gun Into Theater Defends Choice

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by CA Escapee, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. CA Escapee

    CA Escapee Finally!

    Feb 15, 2012
    The man who open carried into a Thornton, Colorado theater on 7/29 has responded to comments left for the article below.

    Mr. Mapes' comment below was taken from the comment page.

    Jim Mapes · Sparta High School
    "Due to legal matters still in process, I’d normally not respond. However, due to brevity the article & video leaves a few key things not addressed. Since they have been stated by myself with attorney present during the interviews, I’ll restate here to hopefully put to rest some pointless debate.

    I carried openly principally because its 90-100 almost every day right now and 70-80 at night, that gun (or any full size semi-auto pistol) is ill-concealable with anything less than a jacket. Meaning it would stick out the bottom or have a very conspicuous bulge in my clothing that makes it obvious I am carrying. Your right to open carry is based on the 19th century notion that only bad guys hide their weapons. Aside from permitted carry, this is still true, virtually no criminal will holster carry in front of you – because they l
    ose ... surprise. Also, open carry is a deterrent; concealed carry only allows you to respond to an attack. The entire “be sensitive & leave it at home” PC influence is just a variation of a “no guns” attitude – which contributed to the carnage at Century on July 20th. Your phobias are your issue, my carrying is an acknowledgement that the police are most often not present at the start of a criminal event and I am responsible for my own protection.

    Gander Mountain is 100-150 feet from Cinnebarre, Holmes bought at least one of his guns there. Just perhaps, while formulating his plan he saw someone like I carrying and going into Cinnebarre – I know others who do since they have allowed firearms there. Seeing this, Holmes may have written that off as a target and chose instead a place that had a posted “no guns” policy knowing that reduced the chances someone present would be armed to fight back. Most important: the shooting happened at Century –Cinnemar; not Cinnebarre.

    Armed response

    It’s really all moot, none of us were there, but there is no doubt that some of the men present who sacrificed themselves to save their girlfriends had the guts to act, if they had the means, to fight back. People will always debate this, because its natural to want to change what happened.

    If someone open carried into the theatre and Holmes saw them, he’d perhaps have changed his plans though this might only have meant going next door. Among hundreds of patrons, it’s unlikely he’d be able to follow them to know where they sat.

    Holmes just bought his firearms, and by all accounts had little to no practice. There is no evidence that he was capable of well aimed return fire, in fact the high injury vs fatality ratio indicates he was just spraying bullets or missing targets and hitting others.

    Body armor reduces the lethality of a hit, it doesn’t reduce the impact much. Body hits on armor break ribs, bruise and knock the wind out of you. Like being hit with a bat or hammer; multiple successive hits would have knocked him down.

    Tear gas is an inconvenience, not an incapacitant. When your choice is wiping snot, or fighting back against a deadly attack – you won’t notice the snot. Plus if a person was acting from the outset of the attack, the gas area would be so limited as to be a non-factor.

    Lighting in a “dark theatre” is like a half moon night. Plenty of visibility to see a lone gunman standing in the aisle and his muzzle flashes. On the other hand, the armed responder’s first shots will have surprise – a couple of hits stunning him, and if that person is within close enough range, use that to close on him and continue to hit him till they can get close enough to ensure an incapacitating shot (non armored area).

    The gunman was in a theater, a place designed where every seat in the house has an unobstructed view to the screen. Holmes was standing near the screen. An armed responder has the potential within a few steps from any point to have line of fire over the heads of people in the rows in front of them – who will all be getting as low & small as possible anyway.

    An armed responder at Century would have saved lives. How many depends on where they were when the first shot came out (Homes fired a round from shotgun into the ceiling. A competent CCW holder within their “point blank” range (for this purpose defined as all hits on torso sized area, for me I consider this to be 60 feet/20 yards) could have had their gun out and firing back while Holmes was tossing the gas. Likely he would have been the only casualty if so.

    If they were further away and needed to close or move to get a clear shot, then Holmes would have had time to empty his shotgun into the crowd; statistically with the number of patrons he had a 1-2% chance of incapacitating one armed responder randomly placed among them. Armed responder has him cold as he transitions from shotgun to rifle, easily 3-5 shots unopposed. If armed responder is wounded, but gets off at least one shot, let alone a hit, Holmes is now acting defensively if not actively leaving the scene.

    Any way you slice it, an armed response would have altered the outcome. There is no scenario other than an anti-gun phobic’s that it would have made it worse. Once he knows he’s under attack, Holmes has to focus on his attacker rather than more victims - lives are saved

    The point is, Century made the law abiding into defenseless targets – there were no police or guards there to compensate for this and has been pointed out, it’s too expensive to do so. I will never patronize their business; their policy was Holmes’ accomplice. Cinnebarre however, I will; assuming everything gets settled here. They respect my right to defend myself and others from criminal assault. If you don’t like that fact that someone in the audience at Cinnebarre may be carrying, go to Century – you’ll feel safer, right?

    Of course, that’s the problem. You may feel safer, but you won’t be. That’s the difference in mindset between gun owners and those with a bias against lawful gun ownership."
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  2. cowboy1964


    Sep 4, 2009
    So was open carry legal where he was busted, or isn't it? That's all I want to know. He can chatter all day long.

  3. Hour13

    Hour13 Tah-dah!

    Aug 21, 2011
    San Antonio, TX
    Overall, a very intelligent & well written statement.

  4. He lost me at sentence 1, paragraph 1, when he whined that he had to OC because it's HOT HOT HOT where's he's at...?

    Like where I'm at it doesn't get to be 95-degrees and 95-percent humidity? And my everyday CCW G19 is smaller than his gun? And they don't have AC in the movie theater he was visiting?
  5. Glock_9mm


    Jul 10, 2012
    Checked my local paper...didn't see any mention of this article, hmmm :whistling:
    As stated above, a very well thought out and well written response.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  6. As for Holmes, we don't know there were NO armed CCWer in the theater. We just know no one stepped up.
  7. CA Escapee

    CA Escapee Finally!

    Feb 15, 2012
    Open carry is legal in Colorado unless a city generates its own law prohibiting it. Thornton Colorado has no such law prohibiting it.

    In earlier articles Mr. Mapes stated he has OC'd in that very theater many times before.

  8. CA Escapee

    CA Escapee Finally!

    Feb 15, 2012
    If Mr. Mapes said it was hot, I imagine he felt it was hot. I would imagine Mr. Mapes would agree with you that it's hot where you are, too. I've known people that sweat profusely at 72°.

  9. Glenn E. Meyer

    Glenn E. Meyer

    Feb 27, 2000
    Living in TX, that is just baloney. As far as his multiple hits strategy, perhaps. It was not a guarantee at North Hollywood or the Tyler Courthouse. Yes, we should carry and be trained but that part of his story is irrelevant to the OC issue. One can easily carry a Glock 19 sized gun in hot weather.

    Would a mentally ill shooter be necessarily deterred by OC. We don't know Holmes mental state. People have attacked courthouses, police stations and groups of police. All obviously armed.

    OC may have been legal but immediately after a rampage, discretion might just be sensible - esp. since his rationale that he HAS to OC is incorrect.
  10. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

    Dec 25, 1999
    Rebel South
    A well written response and I agree with him.

    I will say that I dont really buy the "its too hot to conceal carry". I would be more inclined to believe that he simply wanted to OC, which is as good a reason as any.
  11. CA Escapee

    CA Escapee Finally!

    Feb 15, 2012
    Mr. Mapes has stated that he's OC'd there in the past.

  12. Chris Chris

    Chris Chris

    Jul 2, 2010
    Just MHO, but given the timing and circumstances it was a poorly chosen decision... whether it was legal or not. I live in Florida and know what heat and humidity is. A 16 shot 9mm is no problem to conceal under a loosely fitting tee shirt. With everybody carrying cell phones and Ipads these days, you'd be amazed at how many 'average' citizens completely IGNORE any bulge on under a shirt.

    I don't agree with his OC deterring criminals/nut jobs. It just means they shoot you as soon as they see you.

    I believe... and glean some of this from his response... that he simply wanted to make a statement. OK, he made his statement. Now he has to pay his lawyer and go through whetever legal processes are in progress.

    Tucking the gun under a loose fitting shirt would have still left him armed... made him more discreet... and avoided all of this.
  13. OK. Some people feel a chill when it's 70-degrees. They need to wear a light jacket. A light jacket would impede their presentation. So they should OC?

    Does Mr. Mapes also OC in the winter time, or only during those days in the summer when it gets really hot (for him)?
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  14. Then he should just say he's OC in the past because this is what he believes in. Don't make excuses (oh, weather was too hot...!) about why he needed to do it THIS time.

    No AC in his car?
    No AC in the movie theater?
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  15. CA Escapee

    CA Escapee Finally!

    Feb 15, 2012
    You'd have to talk to Mr. Mapes about his reasoning.

  16. Yes, but you're defending what he wrote, so I assumed you had more insight...
  17. series1811

    series1811 Enforcerator. CLM

    Assuming he wanted to avoid all this, which I don't.
  18. Wolfdad


    Apr 19, 2011
    If Mr. Mapes had the legal right to OC, that should be the end of it, and yes a LEO can talk to him to get a general reading of his mental state. If Mr. Mapes appeard fine, he should have been left alone. The law is the law and must be applied without prejudice.
  19. CA Escapee

    CA Escapee Finally!

    Feb 15, 2012
    Defending what he wrote, or presenting another possiblity?

    I find it rather interesting that people from other states are jumping in screaming "BS", it's not hot in Thornton, Colorado. Their reasoning is it's way hotter and more humid where I live, so Mr. Mapes can't possibly say it's hot.

    I stated that if Mr. Mapes felt it was hot, then OK, Mr. Mapes thought it was hot.

  20. pipedreams

    pipedreams Member

    Feb 19, 2011
    S. E. Iowa