close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

M16 carbine

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by CatsMeow, Aug 30, 2007.


  1. CatsMeow

    CatsMeow
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    2,606
    1
    Location:
    Manila, imported from Cebu City
    Hi all,

    Just for academic discussion, what is the proper designation for the pre-M4 weapon we commonly call the "baby Armalite"?

    1. M653 (as the Scout Rangers call them)
    2. CAR-15 (as it is commonly known in the States; also in BlackHawk Down, the book)
    3. M16A1 carbine (as called by Peter G. Kokalis, formerly of SOF)
    4. All of the above?:supergrin:
     

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
  2. MOTHERGREEN

    MOTHERGREEN
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    464
    0
    well they are all properly designated. they are all just differen't early versions. its not the same rifle being called differen't things they just toyed around with it a while before they arived at the m4.
     

  3. cebuboy

    cebuboy
    Expand Collapse
    toy soldier

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    1,194
    0
    Location:
    Cebu
    It's called the model 653P, which was made under license by Elisco. We were already using them carbines way before the americans :)
     
  4. isuzu

    isuzu
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    4,072
    0
    Location:
    North America
    The "baby" Armalite that were built by Elisco had 16" non-chromed barrels (but with chromed chambers). The Colts that were issued in the Philippines had 14.5" chromelined barrels. Most Eliscos were issued with the PAF, while the Colts were issued with the Special Forces.
     
  5. CatsMeow

    CatsMeow
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    2,606
    1
    Location:
    Manila, imported from Cebu City
    If I see a Special Forces member or Scout Ranger here carrying one, I'll take a look at it.

    The M653, and its predecessor the XM177E2, was never an official issue to the US Army and Marines. I have an article, by Chuck Karwan I think (West Pointer and SF in Vietnam), that says the Special Forces and Force Recon did have a number in their inventories, but experimental models, and they were afraid of turning them in when they broke down for fear that their "unofficial weapons" will be removed from service, which was why, before the M4 was adopted, they had cases of carbines with shot-out barrels, receivers completely in the white, cracked handguards, etc, plus they had to cannibalize other carbines to keep them working. This was why the Force Recon spearheaded the development of the M4. The Army followed suit.

    The US Air Force did have some as official issue, but they denominated theirs as GAU. So many variations of the GAU over time that it's quite confusing.

    Chuck Karwan did made a special mention of the carbine being officially adopted by the Philippine Army.:)
     
  6. saki1611

    saki1611
    Expand Collapse
    BOG's #1611

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2006
    1,284
    0
    Location:
    Philippines
    i have an issued orig elisco baby armalite, it's a 14.5" chromed chamber. it was issued to me 9yrs ago. i haven't seen a 16" elisco.
     
  7. cebuboy

    cebuboy
    Expand Collapse
    toy soldier

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    1,194
    0
    Location:
    Cebu
    Me too, all the elisco 653P I saw had 14.5" barrels. Have not yet encountered a 16" barreled elisco...
     
  8. royal glockster

    royal glockster
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    588
    0
    Location:
    Pilipinas kong mahal
    Proper designation of pre-M4 weapon commonly called "baby M16....my answer is CAR-15 made by Colt..First seen in Vietnam war,AFAIK.:thumbsup:
     
  9. jerrytrini

    jerrytrini
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2001
    1,187
    0
    Location:
    19th Hole
    check out arredondoaccessories.com click on the AR accessories
    you will see three soldiers, the Asian looking one is my son. I believe, they have M-4's? Correct me if I am wrong. This photo was taken several years ago somewhere in the "Sand Box".
     
  10. bisoy

    bisoy
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    127
    0
    Location:
    Cagayan de Oro / Cebu, Philippines
    could it be that the 16" elisco is a "converted" one?
     
  11. isuzu

    isuzu
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    4,072
    0
    Location:
    North America
    When you cut a standard 20" barrel by the gas port to convert it, the barrel length would be about 14.5 inches. The ones that I saw that had 16" barrels were from the Scout Rangers who augmented the 11th IB in Negros in the early 80's. The Special Forces carbines had 14.5" barrels.

    The first time I've ever seen a "baby" was in the mid '70s. An Air Force soldier who was a townmate showed it to my dad and grandfather when they were issued those brand spanking new carbines.

    In fact, one of my close friends has two M16 carbines. One is a Colt with 14.5" barrel and an Elisco with 16" barrel ( I could only imagine how much he pays for renewal of those two rifles:supergrin: ). The Elisco had an aluminum buttstock while the Colt had a plastic buttstock. The Elisco was more accurate than the Colt when we tested them.
     
  12. cebuboy

    cebuboy
    Expand Collapse
    toy soldier

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    1,194
    0
    Location:
    Cebu
    Can you still recall the markings of that 16" carbine? I'm really interested in that varuiant:)
     
  13. isuzu

    isuzu
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    4,072
    0
    Location:
    North America
    It was just an Elisco that he got in the late 70's. The markings are the same as the standard Elisco M16s. He got the Colt sometime in '81 and it had a greenish-gray finish.
     
  14. kcboy

    kcboy
    Expand Collapse
    CHEEPUCK.COM

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    466
    0
    Location:
    manila,philippines
    how much are the charges for license renewal of a high powered rifle like the m16??
     
  15. cebuboy

    cebuboy
    Expand Collapse
    toy soldier

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    1,194
    0
    Location:
    Cebu
    Ok thanks sir isuzu, guess will have to ask around some more :)

    HP firearms license renewal is 3k + the etc fees.
     
  16. isuzu

    isuzu
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    4,072
    0
    Location:
    North America
    I believe the carbines with 16" barrels were the first ones who came out. Could be that subsequent issues may have been changed to a 14.5" barrel. The ones that I saw with the 78th IB in 2001 were barely serviceable (and very old). The rear sights were rusted and wobbly; the barrels almost worn out.:)
     
  17. cebuboy

    cebuboy
    Expand Collapse
    toy soldier

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    1,194
    0
    Location:
    Cebu
    It will be valued as a collectors item:) and btw,the 78th IB is headquartered here in balamban cebu. just paid them a visit last saturday.
     
  18. CatsMeow

    CatsMeow
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    2,606
    1
    Location:
    Manila, imported from Cebu City
    I saw some pictures of Tom Berenger and Willem Dafoe in Platoon. Their weapons had 16-inch barrels. At first I thought they brought some blank-firing AR-15s from the States (they never fired them on auto in the movie). But since it was filmed in the Philippines, perhaps these were the 16-inch Elisco M653Ps.

    The one in the buy-and-sell thread looked like it had a 14.5 inch barrel.
     
  19. isuzu

    isuzu
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    4,072
    0
    Location:
    North America
    One of their drivers was carrying an Elisco "baby" with the wobbly rear sights. We had plans of bringing it to my gunsmith and installing a good sight from a non-working M16, but they suddenly got pulled out of Northern Negros and deployed to Bohol.

    CatsMeow's right. That's the "baby" that I'm referring to. I think that was the same length "baby" issued to the Metrocom in the '70s and '80s.