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Llama or Norinco Single Stack .45

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by miko_a, Jul 10, 2005.

  1. miko_a

    miko_a

    164
    0
    Jul 1, 2003
    Philippines
    Which is better? Llama or Norinco for a single stack .45?

    I'm planning on buying this coming gunshow..


    thanks
     
  2. isuzu

    isuzu

    4,072
    0
    Jul 3, 2005
    North America
    Go for the Norinco. Spares for Llama are very hard to find. This is also true for their magazines. Some 1911 mags won't simply fit the Llama.

    The metallurgy of Llama pistols are also inferior compared to Norinco's. I used to own a Norinco and it did not give me any problem at all.
     

  3. bertud ng putik

    bertud ng putik

    381
    0
    Feb 1, 2005
    cavite
    go for norinco and get the enhanced factory special 1911A1. sa trust trade ka bumili kasi sila ang exclusive distributor ng norinco dito. dont buy and avoid llama at mahina nga bakal nito.
     
  4. toxic

    toxic

    1,491
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    Jan 15, 2005
    doin' time
    llama nyeh jamatic pistola, norinco has very good feedbacks.
     
  5. +1
    mico_a you are lucky to have that Norinco factory enhance special 1911A1 back there in Manila. for us in the province(Cebu), we don't have it in our local stores shelves. we only have the standard g.i. type norinco.
    so if i were you, i'll grabe that Norinco and just forget the Llama. Llama have some compatibility problems with standard 1911 replacement parts. just my 2cent.;f
     
  6. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

    3,046
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    Jan 22, 2004
    almost home
    Please be aware that LLAMA (Fabrinor) factory has closed down in Spain.

    Some background information:

    The LLAMA brandname was originally owned by Gabilondo y Compania of Vitoria, Spain.
    Gabilondo filed for bankruptcy in 1992, and in 1993 sixty of its gunsmiths and employees
    began forming a co-op to buy the LLAMA name and all of Gabilondo’s equipment.

    They took their time to get the best price (so as not to add to the debt they would inherit)
    and finalized the transfer around the year 2000.

    The cooperative that took over was named Fabrinor Arma Corta y Microfusion, S.A.
    They were able to transfer out of Vitoria to a new facility in nearby Legutiano, Gojain, and attempted to sell off Gabilondo’s old real estate holdings around the old factory. They sought to diversify ---offering not just sidearms (‘armas cortas’), but precision parts made via fine investment casting (‘microfusion’).

    Problem is, sales were not increasing fast enough to overtake the maturity of the old debt they inherited from Gabilondo. Fabrinor was able to reschedule said debts in 2002 and again in 2003, but even public listing didn't help. In December of 2004, the law stepped in on behalf of shareholders.

    Fabrinor was compelled to call a special shareholder meeting January 12, 2005, to reveal fully to shareholders the company books, its plans to restructure into a limited partnership, and yet another long-shot attempt to reschedule its inherited debts.

    Apparently, the shareholders didn’t buy it. It’s not surprising that the plant in Legutiano has closed.The question is whether it has closed for good, for piecemeal disposition of its assets, or if it is being kept intact for a new buyer.
    I mean, Empresa Nacional Santa Barbara was somewhat recently bought by General Dynamics, so who knows?

    STAR (Bonifacio Echevarria S.A.) went under in 1993, and into receivership under
    rival ASTRA (Esperanza y Unceta, later Societa Unceta y Cia, and lastly Astra-Unceta y Cia), which in turn collapsed completely in 1997. With the apparent passing of LLAMA (Gabilondo y Cia, then Fabrinor) would come an end to the old Spanish triumvirate of pistolmakers in the north.

    There does remain, to the east, the Catalan manufacturer DC Custom, which offers popular IPSC-style 1911-type competition pistols under the brand name S.P.S., and throughout the country, no shortage of young Spanish gunsmiths with dreams, better ideas on steel and computers, and a little money tucked away.

    The newest issues of LLAMA are actually decent guns, though the bad reputation of the last batches from Vitoria (before the transfer to the new factory) affects all opinion. There certainly IS a problem with true 1911 compatibility --LLAMA made only one true 1911, and IIRC it wasn't branded a 'MAX'.

    For those buying or having recently purchased LLAMA pistols, it might be best to ask deenoh about warranties, as WSC is the official distributor of the brand in the Philippines.


    hth,
    horge
     
  7. Alexii

    Alexii Janeway Forever

    1,069
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    Nov 14, 2001
    Delta Quadrant
    Goodness, horge. Is there anything you don't know?;)

    My vote goes to the Norinco too. About the only few gripes I have with it are the diminutive sights, conspicuous tool marks, and out-of-spec grip bushings. All of which can be rectified by a competent gunsmith though. I'd get the most basic Norinco, customize the blaster to my specs, and have that Made in China label puttied up and reblued.;f
     
  8. +1, i dont want to malign the LLAMA brand but actual incidents dont lie. That pistol is really "problematic", as i actually witnessed how LLAma pistols jammed and failed to eject, not once but many times on different occasions and units used. Buy norinco, matigas pa ang bakal. :cool:
     
  9. Eye Cutter

    Eye Cutter Moderator

    8,193
    1
    Nov 21, 2002
    Dr. B. Eye
    buy pilipino. get an armscor, rock island or a sam
     
  10. also agree with eyecutter, those are reliable pistols too! nakatulong pa tayo sa bayang pilipinas. Actually i have 2 sam pistols, commander and a government model, though i already sold the commodore (commander model). Kasi naman eyecutter, the choice is between norinco or llama, that's why i recommend norinco, hehehehe!
     
  11. Eye Cutter

    Eye Cutter Moderator

    8,193
    1
    Nov 21, 2002
    Dr. B. Eye
    option lang naman yung buy pilipino suggestion!
     
  12. tumpak. so it means i already had contributed something kasi kabibili ko lang ng Sam Commodore. ;f maybe the next project is a 38 super RIA or a .40 cal Armscor or SAM again. ;f ;a ;)
     
  13. miko_a

    miko_a

    164
    0
    Jul 1, 2003
    Philippines
    Everyone,

    Thank you for all the help.. Really appreciate it.

    Btw, any news on the RIA Molykote finish?
     
  14. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

    3,046
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    Jan 22, 2004
    almost home
    Alexii,

    Just regurgitating ;)
    And.. hey, +1 to Alvin's suggestion/option!

    Mabuhay ang Pilipinas!
     
  15. vega

    vega

    2,799
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    Sep 29, 2001
    SoCal
    Llama is not a true 1911.
    Go Norinco if you just want to decide between the 2.
    Or better yet, get an Armscor like some suggested.

    vega
     
  16. deenoh

    deenoh

    615
    0
    Feb 3, 2003
    Philippines
    For your concerns sa warranty, WSC will cover anything that may need repairing on your Llama and any other pistol brands that we carry.

    Regarding Miko's question. I think I can help, walang stock ng Single Stack .45 so I would suggest you go with a Norinco :) Napadali ang decision mo pards.

    If you're going to go for a compact model, check us out sa gun show. We don't carry the standard size pistol unfortunately.
     
  17. isuzu

    isuzu

    4,072
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    Jul 3, 2005
    North America
    Ooops! Before doing any alterations to the markings of the gun, please check the FED rules on altering or deleting markings on the gun. It could get you in some sort of trouble if the rule would strictly be adhered to.
     
  18. Alexii

    Alexii Janeway Forever

    1,069
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    Nov 14, 2001
    Delta Quadrant
    Yup, that's actually my next question(s). Up to how far can one go in altering what's written on the slide? If I leave the serial number alone and erase everything else, would that be legal?

    I know one military person who erased the Colt logo on his Colt and had the slide re-etched SAM. Go figure.
     
  19. isuzu

    isuzu

    4,072
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    Jul 3, 2005
    North America
    I think that before you make any alterations on the gun's markings, you have to inform the FED about it, and you have to give them stencils before and after the gun has been altered.

    Can't change the brand of the gun unless the military guy did it to "duplicate" his firearm with a license which is illegal under FED rules.

    Remember, that if the gun is used in a shooting, lawyers could go as far as requesting for a micro-etching of the gun (just like what the LTO does to engines and chassis of vehicles) to find the authenticity of the serial nos. If the micro-etching gives out a conflicting result, then it's another big headache.
     
  20. Alexii

    Alexii Janeway Forever

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    Nov 14, 2001
    Delta Quadrant
    Thanks for the heads-up, isuzu!

    Will look into the nitty gritty part of the subject further. I hope it goes just as far as stencilling the before and after slide marks of the gun. If FED requires additional paperworks/fee for this, I may have to learn to live with the Made in China label.;)