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LEO's: how many rounds/year required for qualification?

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by vtducrider, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. vtducrider

    vtducrider

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    I suspect the requirements vary depending on the agency. But I was shocked to find out that my girlfriend, who works for the US courts, only has to shoot 50 rounds per year with a min score of 40/50 to qualify with her G22. Any shot placement on a silhouette target is a hit. The number was reduced from 100 this year.
     
  2. Bill Lumberg

    Bill Lumberg BTF Inventor

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    Why would you post this here rather than in CT? Qual course is 50 rounds pistol/rifle, less for shotgun, pass required twice a year on all three. Add in required pre-qual/low light/moving and shooting/all three weapons systems and bare minimum you're going to shoot a year with us is in the neighborhood of 280 rounds a year. Most of us shoot far more than that. Don't even get me started on the pistol team or SRT guys. By the case. That said- most folks don't understand the purpose of a qual. The in-depth training happens at the academy and at in-service. Qual is pretty much making sure the officer hasn't lost the basic marksmanship competency required to hold the job.
     

    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013

  3. I work for a local dept. and that sounds about right for the yearly quals...however, we have range days scheduled twice a month, one is mandatory, and one is optional.....you decide which one or both you attend....that does not count the "on your own" time at the range, which my dept will sometimes supply the ammo for...we have a pretty open range policy, as long at the local college police academy is not using it, we can use it anytime we want, and shoot anything we want....I even sight in the deer rifles very year before the season...
     
  4. collim1

    collim1 Shower Time!

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    Some years we shoot twice in a year, but only once per year is required. 50rds handgun qual, 10rds shotgun qual all stationary firing at a Q target 25-7 yds away.

    Pretty sad IMO.
     
  5. Bill Lumberg

    Bill Lumberg BTF Inventor

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    Are the folks at your agency generally qualifying with high scores? Easily passing? These are indicators of whether or not more frequent range time is a necessity. Annuals or semi-annuals aren't about reteaching bicycle operation, rather making sure they remember how to ride. That said, I'm all about more shooting. It's never enough.
     
  6. mjkeat

    mjkeat

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    I have seen some LEOs that were good shooters. If I was to put a percentage on it I'd say 10% were proficient enough that I wasn't disappointed. Some are downright horrible. As in they couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag or hit a 3'x2' target at 20-30ft. And these are the ones actually putting forth the effort to shoot on their own time. Scary to think of the ones who don't shoot outside of yearly qualification.

    Like I've said before it's not entirely their fault. Just like a lot of agencies don't institute physical fitness requirements. It's a budget issue. This is why we see disgustingly overweight officers and dash cam video of officers scrambling as some d-bag slaughters them.

    Instead of raising my taxes to feed some entitlement program use them to train our officers CORRECTLY.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
  7. Ryobi

    Ryobi SummertimeRules

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    8 or 9 out of 10 would smoke the average non professional gun toter. It's only on the Internet that everyone shoots better than police. Of course, the vast majority don't shoot at public/private ranges. Except for hunting, you'll find them shooting at their agency range. But that still leaves room for web experts to say they know all about LE shooting capability from "some guy" they saw at IDPA or a public range. The real world gap is less significant when it comes to defensive tactics proficiency. Of course, OC and baton help there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  8. I totally agree Ryobi, like I said, I work for a small dept. and I would put our officers against anyone in the IDPA scene...they may not win, but the result will be respectable for everyday cops...
     
  9. mjkeat

    mjkeat

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    Not true but then my perspective is a little different. I am speaking from first had experience through roughly 10 classes a year as a student, classes as an instructor, seeing it multiple times a week, and knowing LEO and other trainers.

    From the lead trainer for my states correction and law enforcement program. 10% are proficient, 20% are average, and the rest are clueless. Like I've said I've witnessed this firsthand on a weekly basis.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
  10. ESI

    ESI

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    I worked for a security company that required us to qualify four times a year, and we were also required to qualify with the State twice a year. Six quals a year,not bad.

    I've also seen Guard types who should never be allowed to carry a firearm and I've seen Security Agents who were highly trained armed professionals.
     
  11. boomhower

    boomhower

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    Pistol is 50 rounds day, 50 rounds night. Shotgun 5 buck 5 slug each day and night. 80% to pass. Rifle is 30 rounds day/night with 95 to pass. We qualify once a year with no other training. When we qualify we will do a practice round and shoot a few at a flipper rack but that's it. Our firearms training is well below what I'd like to see.
     
  12. WoodenPlank

    WoodenPlank Who?

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    My neighbor growing up was one of the lead firearms instructors for the county, and the DM for the county's version of a SWAT team. He also did a lot of the instruction for several other local agencies, and department of corrections. On top of that, he is one of the best pistol shooters and instructors I have met, but my experience there is a little more limited.

    He was also one of the first to speak up and openly say that most cops can't shoot for ****, and many are idiots when it comes to guns. He had countless DoC guards come through that couldn't consistently hit a B25 at 15-20 yards with a Mini-14 fired from the shoulder.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  13. Pier23

    Pier23 Silver Member

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    Please, please, PLEASE don't take this as a troll, but an honest inquiry.

    I gather the quals here being discussed is punching paper?

    Are any quals done on a combat course to simulate conditions under which the officer may be required to use a weapon?
     
  14. WoodenPlank

    WoodenPlank Who?

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    All the quals I have seen (small agencies) were on a static range with paper targets. I know some larger agencies have nicer setups and may do shoot houses or other types of drills, but I haven't seen them.
     
  15. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    If they required all LEO to pass an actual meaningful qualification course, drawing from holster, getting A hits, under the clock etc... most would not pass.

    Imagine all LEO having to pass the old air marschall qual........ forget about it, not enough training, not enough LEO who are gun people, desire to do it etc.....

    http://www.gunlaws.com/pdf/Air Marshall Pistol Drill.pdf

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K4FB8PzR5s"]Federal Air Marshal Qualification Drill with Sig 220 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  16. ronin.45

    ronin.45

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    That's a pretty common qual. Very sad IMO! Some have improved to require movement and barricades, but most would make a weak IDPA stage. Many departments don't require any practice at all. The annual qual is the only shooting many officers do all year.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  17. mjkeat

    mjkeat

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    All while funding goes to entitlement programs. It upsets me that our peace officers don't get the training they need.
     
  18. C/O-RC

    C/O-RC

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    we do 100 rounds each time. 2 day shoots and 1 night low light shoot. 25 to 2 yard line. we cover shooting from barricades standing kneeing strong side and weak side. forward and backward movement to cover. 1 hand shooting and reload drills 80% to pass
     
  19. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA

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    First, you are asking a terrible question, or rather a question in a terrible way.

    Case law states that "qualification" is not considered training. So asking how many rounds are needed for qualification means nothing.

    In my department, we shoot 60 rounds of handgun, 60 rounds of rifle and 10 rounds of shotgun for qualification purposes.

    However, we also shoot multiple tactical and stress courses. Each drill or course can be from 10-30+ rounds, depending on the goal of the course.
     
  20. Bill Lumberg

    Bill Lumberg BTF Inventor

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    First, you're wrong. Second, I have not ever encountered a law enforcement agency that did not have a qualification course that required officers to shoot from the holster, under the clock, with graded scoring based on hit quality. I can't say what an "A" hit is, as none of the normal LE qual targets (B27R, Transtar II, etc.) have such a thing. What academy do you work for that you have such first hand across the board knowledge of LE competency and quals?