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Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by Lugi, Jun 9, 2012.
Thinking of getting 100 rounds. This would be for H.D.
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It is considered to by many to be the best overall HD and LEO round currently available. It is good ammo. The Federal PD (Personal Defense 132 is the same ammo. Buy as much as much as you like. Also keep an eye out for their recently released 132 1B load. Some info/tetst suggests this to be overall better round than their 00B. Ammoman had some a short time ago.
I just ordered some.
Very good ammo, I have been using the LE 13300 lately with great results also.
Good stuff. Patterns really well (under 2 inches @ 21 ft.) and looks like it'll get the job done if needed.
All I use is that ammo & the Winchester RA1200. Both loads are great in my 18.5 590a1.
Thanks guys....the brown truck will be coming my way tomorrow and dropping off 50 rounds...I wish it was more but oh well.
Its not a bad load but IMO it patterns too tightly for a home defense load. You get no spread inside of 10 yards and there are VERY few places in a home where you will shoot more than 30 feet.
Its a great load for 25-40 yards!
But that flite control wad with the shot buffer holds the shot column together too well for my taste. Inside the house I like Winchester Ranger #4 buck. Buy a few boxes next time you order some ammo and pattern it... Inside of 10 yards you'll be amazed at how much more it opens up than even a standard OO buck load let alone the Federal LE loads.
Its my issued duty load for my patrol shotgun. It really makes your shotgun a 40-50 yds weapon.
For the house I use cheap Remington or Federal #4 buck. No need for golf ball sized groups at in the house distances.
Listen to Ponch.
I have been using LE132 00 for a few years as my primary HD load. Recently, however, I bought some LE132 1B, which is even more effective. I always want the tightest pattern, at any distance.
I also have fed LE 133 00.
Yep it's great stuff. I personally want the tight grouping for home defense. I have shot it from 5 yards and out to about 25 and it is still all inside of a torso area. No spray and pray for me. I want my hits exactly where I aim.
Why not just use slugs? Or a rifle?
The killing power of a shotgun comes from its ability to deliver a large number of lethal projectiles spread over a reasonable size pattern.
The purpose of the pattern is to increase the probability that less than precise shot placement will incapacitate your adversary. You might be moving. He might be moving. Or both.
Spray and pray isn't the issue. Hell, I don't spray and pray when I'm duck hunting, or dove hunting, or on any other living thing I shoot with a shotgun. But I have benefited from a good pattern over various distances when shots are taken in less than peefect conditions--into the sun, to the rear, on an animal that jumps or jerks as it flies, at odd angles etc, in low light, etc etc.
You will face the same issues in a HD scenario
I have never hear one professional trainer, or anyone who has used a shotgun in non-military confrontations, as an LEO or civillian advocate anything but the tightest pattern possible. Basically most advocate using it like a carbine and treating it as such. All firearms carry the risk of over penetration and subsequent damages but you can't compare the risk from a tight buckshot pattern to a single rifle bullet or even a slug. buckshot shows a low tendency to exit the human torso which also means complete energy dump.
"Alley sweepers" are for TV and those who don't know better.
It's all I use in my shotguns. I like the tight group, and it feels very consistent (vs. cheaper buckshot loads that have varying patterns).
Because slugs penetrate entirely too much for the area I'm in (my reasoning, anyway... if I didn't have neighbors so close, you bet I'd have slugs in there), and a rifle doesn't have the same effect on a body as 9 pellets of 00 in the same spot.
No, it comes simply from it's number of projectiles... the larger pattern has a higher propensity to waste its energy. If I aim for center chest, I want all pellets hitting center chest, and delivering their energy. I don't want one pellet hitting the arm, the other the gut, and a few in the collar bone. I want every single one in a very tight pattern, right where I aimed.
Yes, and that is why it is imperative that you train in many scenarios, with a lot of stress and a lot of movement, so you are able to connect with your shots, and not rely on the shot's spread to do it. What if you grabbed your handgun or rifle when you heard a bump in the night, for whatever reason? Would you just stay on the trigger in the general area? No, you would (hopefully) fall back on the things you've trained, and make your shots count. Same goes for shotguns.
You guys spend too much time on the internet reading BS about energy transfer, penetration, etc. You need to go kill some things with a shotgun. You need to shoot some moving targets--because your bad guy isn't going to stand still for you! You need to set up you defensive plan with shoot/don't shoot lanes.
There's no such thing as "overpenetration". Because ANY effective manstopping cartridge will have the ability to completely penetrate a human torso. Doesn't matter. YOU WANT PENETRATION...COMPLETE VENTILATION..BOTH SIDES. Don't give me a bunch of internet BS about energy transfer. Its a stupid argument made by people who have never killed anything. If you have issues with unsafe shooting lanes--(neighbors in the line of fire)--DON'T SHOOT--PERIOD. If you miss you will have a problem. Set up your defensive strategy with safe shooting lanes. But for crying out loud if you have people at risk in your line of fire don't shoot and therefore you don't have to hope that some underperforming ammo maybe not going through a couple walls if you miss your target. A 00 Buck shotgun shell isn't a big Glaser Safety slug.
A "tight" pattern is a relative term. It does NOT mean a big wad of shot. You can have a pattern 30" in diameter and depending on the shot it can be a tight pattern. A "tight" pattern does not mean a single ball of shot. A tight pattern is one that gives the optimum (that doesn't mean biggest) dispersion of shot at a given distance to increase the probability of a target hit. Again, a single ball of shot can be extremely lethal IF you hit precisely where you are aiming. But using a shotgun that way negates one of its best features--the ability to make lethal hits with less than perfect shot placement. That's what a pattern accomplishes. It increases the probability that a major organ, blood vessel, etc will be hit.
You folks who think you are capable of surgical shot placement and will never miss are clueless.
To each their own. I will take the federal 00 buck if used at short distances and a slug if past 25 yards. Besides hunting and at the range what is the possibility of taking a shot over 25 yards in a defensive situation? Could happen but not likely since I'm not LE or Mil.
This man speaks with great wisdom.
Paper targets are static and don't interact in a unpredictable human way. Solve that problem in a training environment and you will be rich however it remains elusive.
I don't mind some spread in my shotgun. I don't see a universal advantage to the tightest pattern possible and yet, sweeping an alley isn't desireable either.
I can't subscribe to the belief that blowout penetration is desireable because a deer's nearby neighbors aren't going to sue me and it is wasted energy. I can run over an animal and completely overwhelm it's physical body but is that necessary?
So in end the end, it's imperfect and non-conclusionary. I have some of the 132 and I also have a bunch of the Fiocchi low recoil 00 buck. The 132 is in my shotgun but I could happily switch it for the Fiocchi and not lose any sleep. I just have to recognize the fluidity of any HD scenario or self defense shooting and keep that in mind during my training.
I found the intro to Scott Reitz's book where he describes is 5 OIS to be particularly insightful on just how quick, unpredictable and violent things can go south.