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Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Comrade Bork, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. Comrade Bork

    Comrade Bork

    May 1, 2001
    I was recently re-reading Jared Diamond's, Pulitzer Prize-winning “Guns, Germs, and Steel. The fates of Human Societies.”, 1997., and came across his discussion of the nature of “kleptocracies”. That is, state-level societies controlled by an elite at the literal expense of the “commoners” below them.“…Kleptocrats throughout the ages have resorted to a mixture of four solutions:

    1. Disarm the populace, and arm the elite. That’s much easier in these days of high-tech weaponry, produced only by industrial plants and easily monopolized by an elite, than in ancient times of spears and clubs easily made at home.

    2. Make the masses happy by redistributing much of the tribute received, in popular ways. This principle was as valid for Hawaiian chiefs as it is for American politicians today.

    3. Use the monopoly of force to promote happiness, by maintaining public order and curbing violence. This is potentially a big and underappreciated advantage of centralized societies over noncentralized ones.

    Anthropologists formerly idealized band and tribal societies as gentle and nonviolent, because visiting anthropologists observed no murder in a band of 25 people in the course of a 3-year study. Of course they didn’t; it’s easy to calculate that a band of a dozen adults and a dozen children, subject to the inevitable deaths occurring anyway for the usual reasons other than murder, could not perpetuate itself if in addition one of its dozen adults murdered another adult every three years. Much more extensive long-term information about band and tribal societies reveals that murder is a leading cause of death. For example, I happened to be visiting New Guinea’s Iyau people at a time when a woman anthropologist was interviewing Iyau women about their life histories. Woman after woman, when asked to name her husband, named several sequential husbands who had died violent deaths. A typical answer went like this: “My first husband was killed by Elopi raiders. My second husband was killed by a man who wanted me, and who became my third husband. That husband was killed by the brother of my second husband, seeking to avenge his murder.” Such biographies prove common for so-called gentle tribespeople and contributed to the acceptance of centralized authority as tribal societies grew larger.

    4. The remaining way for kleptocrats to gain public support is to construct an ideology or religion justifying kleptocracy.

    Bands and tribes already had supernatural beliefs, just as do modern established religions. But the supernatural beliefs of bands and tribes did not serve to justify central authority, justify transfer of wealth, or maintain peace between unrelated individuals. When supernatural beliefs gained those functions (in State-level societies) they were thereby transformed into what we term a religion. Hawaiian chiefs were typical of chiefs elsewhere, in asserting divinity, divine descent, or at least a hotline to the Gods. The chief claimed to serve the people by interceding for them with the gods and reciting the ritual formulas required to obtain rain, good harvests, and success in fishing.

    Any of this sound familiar?
  2. Smacktard


    Oct 22, 2005
    You forgot that most people live with in their heads in sand, so you've had no replies to this post.


  3. hooligan74


    Aug 15, 2012
    Charlotte, NC
    My guess is that most people replied to the exact same thread in the political forum. Plus, this isn't really a religious thread.

    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  4. Comrade Bork

    Comrade Bork

    May 1, 2001
    Two of the four points involved guns & religion, and the point itself involved Kleptocratic political organization, so I thought it was appropriate in all three forums.

    I was struck by just how well Diamond pegged exactly what we are seeing today, way back in '97.

  5. Bread and circuses...EBT cards and television...

    The Romans survived a long time by conquering new lands and harvesting tribute from them to buy bread and circuses for the citizens. They were successful colonizers for a long time, often using troops from earlier conquests to control later ones.

    The United States colonized its present lands for two centuries, bought Alaska, and annexed Hawaii. It made a number of other colonization attempts, but gave them back to the then indigenous people - Cuba, Philippines, Canal Zone... Then it harvested tribute from its own citizens to rebuild Europe and Japan after WWII. Since then it has fought several bloody expensive wars without winning any and has received no tribute from these lands. Not even any oil from Iraq.

    Guess we'll never figure out this empire game.

    Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire