KKM/LW won't shoot my HC bullets ???

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by CanyonMan, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    Cm, I got a good chuckle on one of your posts you said "I an wait to go shooting tomorrow... Unless it rains, and I hope it rains". lol. I feel the same way. I'd trade a shooting day for a nice rainy or cool fall day. This heat is wearing on all of us. I often think about ya down there in the south...

    Anyways, yea, I HAVE a chrono but nowhere to set it up tomorrow. Boohoo!!

    Excited to meet a fellow shooter, too. Should be good. :)

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
  2. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Well Nick and every one... I wish it would have rained out here.. It is 105 degress and the place will catch on fire from a guy with a high fever ! Which I got from today's shooting session..

    Let's look at all the crappy things that happened today !

    Quoting my post above.. # 16


    With the NEW KKM barrel I could not have hit the inside of the tack room if I had been in it ! 4"/6" groups at 15yds apporx, and really worse at 25yds. SOOOOO, I knew buy this time there would be NO long range shooting today, so I tried a few more of the "above loads..."

    Some where in the middle of 9.2 LS and 200gr XTP, something sounded funny. I stopped to take a look see...

    Now understand. I did not start hand loading yesterday, nor shooting guns everyday of my life since i was 10 years old and reloading close to 45 years. On the ranch I shoot everyday, barring a really hard work day and no time.

    I am ONLY saying all this to build up my story... Not being smart, honestly. haha.

    I said all that to say, I load everything I load for bar none, one at a time and ona a RCBS balance scale, and doule check on a RCBS electroinc scale or vice versa... Been using their balance beam scale 'since I first started...'

    Now, every stage is always inspected and double checked. SO, I have NOT, (don't care what anyone thinks.. politely speaking) had any "my fault" problems but maybe once or twice (and they were nothing really) in ALL these years. Not bad when ya shoot every day and shoot hundreds of rounds a week for all these years..

    Hang on, I'm just baiting you all... HA!

    Remember I said a minute ago, "I bent down to take a look see" Well, after the funny noise, I found a split case (everything shot today was brand new in the bag brass from WW and DT)

    So I continued to waste my time trying to even hit the canyon wall, haha, much less any clays, rocks, targets, steel, etc... I di well to hit the ground !

    Now, I can honestly say, "This is the first time I have EVER shot this bad since I was between 10 and 11 years old, and that was about 51 years ago !!!

    So after thinking I had surely lost my touch, or maybe never had it, haha, and all these years had been a dream or something. Taking deer at 100yds with a G20, and further with Hog legs, and never any scopes, and all the cool things zi thought I had done, I knew this is either me (duh) or the barrel ! But NO barrel could be this crappy !!!

    OH YEH ..

    Well when I bent down to get the piece of brass that came from the shot that "sounded funny," I picked up a bunch of others, I had just fired as well.

    Here they are from a NEW KKM barrel:


    If ya look hard enough you can not only see the one that "split." but also they all have hog belly's (OEM looking brass buldge, and bad at six o' clock ! Just like most older OEM Glocks ! Eaiser to see in person..


    Now, that ain't all. After all my braggin that I have never had a Glock jam, FTF/ FTE, mess up on me etc.. (except for a G20years ago with FACTORY WW ammo that blew up the whole gun,

    Here is a quick few of that:


    OK.. Moving right along to today again...

    While shooting another one of the above loads, I forget now which one because of anger and heat stroke... HA ! My trigger failed to reset !?? So, I dropped the mag, and pulled the slide back and out popped the cartridge, and released the slide and the trigger stayed back. Put a cartridge in the mag, pulled the slide back, released, and the trigger stayed back. Thinking something is definately broke, I dropped the mag ejecting the cartridge, and jacked the slide back and forth severl some times and ALL was cool and the trigger reset.

    I pulled the slid off, and took a peek inside the reciever and messed around and never saw a thing broke or out of place, or notta !

    Placed the slide back on and chalked it up to debre !

    Loaded up and continued shooting and shooting etc. No problems, except I could barely hit the canyon wall !

    So, Tired of all this mess and hotter than..... I decided to go in the house and cool off !

    Took everything apart, and pulled everything out of slide and recierver , and gave it ALL the magnifying glass treatment. Nothing ! So, while I was there, I got the flitz, and polished ALL internals of slide and reciver, and what the heck, went ahead and dropped in a Glock OEM 3,5# connector. (I had several in a baggie from years ago) .

    Looked in the KKM after a good scurbbing and saw nothing weird.


    Got no stinking clue ! :rofl:

    I am hot, and tired and PO'd, and Please don't one of you 'uh um' good amigo's tell me, "well you just had a bad day shooting, and were in a slump....." :shame:

    Helen Keller could have shot better than this !!!

    I have NEVER in my life, seen anything this pathetic.

    Now, after over 100rds of ammo, and stepping on some of the empties in my dazed condition, and coming back in the house with about half of what I had. Did not feel like stomping in the weeds to look for the cases.

    So, this is my story. I sure hope NICK has one from him and Gator out shooting today better than this. haha.

    I suppose you all have guessed by now that the KKM hits the mail box in town Monday morning. "Refund time." :supergrin:

    I'll stick with OEM, and 10.7/11.0grs Blue Dot (yes these have always worked and shot perfecto and mucho accurate) in 180gr XTP and the 10.5grs BD with the 200gr XTP. And my BD recipie SSSSHHH ! for my 200gr HC bullets in the G20.

    Don't know what the non reset trigger gig was, unless it was debre some where, it did clear up, and as I said , I could find NO issue with the gun after "complete take down etc," So I have to guess this is what it was. If someone else has a answer/guess/suggestion, come on..

    Well amigo's. I am going to go drink a barrel of ice tea, and sit down, and pet the dog and play with the grand kids for a while, and hope I fall asleep and wake up and see that none of this happened and was all a bad dream !

    Feel free to chime in !

    Buenos Tardes !


    #22 CanyonMan, Jul 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  3. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.


    I did shoot today and will post a full report when I get to a PC (on my iPhone now at the pool) but I don't know off hand what happened to your groups, but 200gr XTP over 9.2gr LS should probably be 8.2gr. I've shot up to 9.4gr but HORNADY max is 8.2.

    Is that a typo?

    Also, I will day that your case splits look like a brass defect not a over pressure but I could be wrong.

    I'll get on an post this evening with a full report as promised but I will say, in short, Gator378 and I had a great day at the range!

    More later!!
  4. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    WOW, do you know which loads specifically those were that bulged & split the cases?
    I did have a Hornady case split just like that with the 9.4 grain LongShot load over the 200XTP, it was used several times.
    Which case actually split? There was some mention of DT having some foreign made brass...
    What recoil spring/system was in use?
  5. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    By the POOL eh ? Huuuummmm. I would have to go jump n the stock tank, and it's almost empty..

    No typo's here amigo. As you said, you have been up to 9.4. Yes, Hodgdon allows for 8.2grs which put me only 1gr over. This data comes from ALL these other load data converations a bunch of us guys had a few days ago on this forum concerning LS loads and 180/200gr XTP's...

    Something told me this was to HOT... I should have went with my convictions. Oh well, I still wish I knew what the non trigger reset was. I have to gues debre for now.

    Simply the horrible groups came from a very poor barrel I happened to get. I popped the OEM back in and stepped back out and no problems (with just a few rounds) I am to tired to mess with it any longer today I assure you. haha.

    Well I'd say stay cool, but you got a grip on that already. Glad ya had a good day.


  6. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Hey amigo !

    Yes, It was a brand new in the bag never before fired WW. I have never had issue with them (except for the factory one haha).

    The load was the 9.2gr LS under the 200gr XTP. Yes I run a steel rod and wolff 20-ish # spring. I could tell by the report and feel they were waaaay to hot, so like a moron, I continued. Must have been the heat !. Not really, I just thought wow, pretty stout in this little hombre G29.. But AH, never again willI tread over max with this powder. Not good.

    But, also, must understand the KKM left these hog bellys (you can see in the pics) with most of everything I shot.

    The OEM did fine !

    All I know my friend.

  7. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    I hear you, Winchester has been one of the stronger brass, the LongShot is very entergetic and that is why I liked 800X slightly better, however it is hard to beat the Blue Dot for tha accuracy that you and I have seen over the years with many cartridges and bullet combinations!

    I was going to test some loads today but it was drizzling early, so I finished up building a flip up target stand on the end of the ironing board that I have my CHRONY mounted to.
    #27 _The_Shadow, Jul 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  8. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Shadow you ask me whiich cases.. WW, and I also just looked and saw there is a New Starline in here as well...


    It too, is buldged. 9.2 LS/200gr XTP.

    Checked the scales.... Everything "right on." I always double check when loading up any way, but ...

    Takes me about an hour, or if I am really takin my time 1 1/2 hours per 100, start to finish. Slow, but that is one reson I have just not had issues, save for a couple little things in all these years. Barrel/loads. Nothing else to it I can see..

  9. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    Surely, CM, you have better things to do than stand out in the heat and shoot where you ain't lookin'. The tea and grandkids sounds like the plan today.

    While 9.2 gr LS is a hot load under a 200 gr XTP, it isn't anywhere near a full nuke load, and LS is (normally) a lot more forgiving than that. Did you have the rounds sitting in the sun for a time before shooting? (I've never done with LS this, so I don't know what might happen) Did you try the same load in your OEM barrel? Did you try them in the LW barrel? If you did, what was the result? Any chance of a recoil set-back?

    Your KKM barrel shouldn't be bulging those cases like that, for any reason. Do the bulged/split brass fit back in? If they don't, you may have been seeing some (very) early unlocks.
  10. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Well pard, looks like you got everything pretty well "Ironed out." haha ! :rofl: Please send the rain our way !!!

    Nice little set up you got there amigo.... good thinking. Ha!

    Yep WW has always served me well. Blue Dot has always (in semi auto 10's served me well) been good and never an issue..


    800X is good to go for me and has been in 10.1grs under a 180gr XTP. 10.5/11.0grs of BD under a 180gr XTP has for years worked excellent in OEM and LW. 10.5grs BD with 200gr XTP has worked excellent in OEM and LW with this bullet, and again my BD recipie, with 200gr BT HC at 1.260 has been more than excellent in the OEM G20 for years and years. Enough to take 100yd Texas deer and be a very potent load for what ever I need.. Yes one or two of these are a little tad over Hornady max, BUT... SAFE, For all the years in OEM I have shoot these I can assure you fellow amigo's and 10mm shooter's NOT one issue.... Not one ! ;)

    NO TYPO's haha ! NO TYPO's !

    I know I am more the big bore hog leg carrier/shooter than the 10mm , but 14 years with 10mm has been a learning adventure for me and the loads I just named (above) have been 'more' than safe in the G20and G29 in the OEM barrels and really pack a punch.

    I believe that "SHADOW" will agree on these loads (BD) in 10mm that they work really well.

    Man I am missing my western movie "Cross fire trail" with Tom Selleck... Better go before I fall asleep. Every time I try to sit down, I have to jump up and run do something for a few minutes.

    OK, Yall's turn !

    Deleted a bunch of this stuff due to writting while taking 'pain meds' along with a long Hot ruff day... To wordy ! Ha.

    Sorry for all the ramblig guys..
    I'm better now... I think !

    #30 CanyonMan, Jul 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  11. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Amigo, you are so very right on here !!!!

    NO, buldged hog belled case will NOT fit back in any barrel....

    I not only had all the bad "shooting experience of a life time", and all manner of things gong south on me, but after my "Ice tea and grand kid break", (which lasted about 5 minutes. haha) I had to pull a foal out that was breached, (15 minute job by the time I got there) and 'ream out' two hired hands, and spend a while in a 150 degree meatal shed at 5,000 square feet trying to fix a HUGE AC break down, ( and got it fixed 'fast', 'whew....' ) before a number of $ 15,000 to $40,000 dollar cuttin horses were over heating!!!! They are supposed to be stayin cool in there....

    To answer 'your question', NO I did NOT have ammo in the heat amigo, I took them from the bench and drove down to the lower canyon and started shooting.. NO heat problems.. ;) Good thought on 'your behalf', but no, I did not have them in the heat long enough to cause a problem...

    As far as the cycling of the gun, no problem.... It ran very well and 'in time'. Obviously the spent shells will NOT fit back into the chamber of the KKM because they are all " hog belled." They are to swollen to fit back in because of poor barrel chamber sizing.

    The same loads in the OEM barrel were great except for the 9.2 LS These were the major trouble loads... Now they did shoot with more accuracy in the oem than the KKM, but not enough to write home about.

    The "cycling" of the slide was perfect, no problems and all was as should be. It is just real simple. A lousy KKM barrel, perhaps ( in MY case) one out of a cabillion, haha. And loads over max with such powder that reacted in a bad way.

    That's about it....

    Now back to my video of 'cross fire trail', and falling a sleep.

    Bless you old boys

    #31 CanyonMan, Jul 22, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  12. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    Well I ventured out today to test some hand loads...Speer 200 gr Cast TCBB SWC over 9.8 grains of my favorite powder Blue Dot seated to 1.26" with Remington 2 1/2 LP's.
    From the Glock 29 factory 3.78"
    1150 fps from the clean bore, then 1063, 1079, 1089, 1033 fps

    From the S&W 1006 5"
    1174, 1201, 1146, 1168, 1150
    1153, 1156, 1167, 1151, 1133
    1137, 1152, 1131, 1141. 1135
    1154, 1145, 1201, 1201, 1201
    1143, 1136, 1119, 1124, 1119

    Sweat dripping into my eyes, down both arms, jeans soaked and pulling down...25' target spread was 6 1/2" total.
  13. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Thanks for the report Shadow. If ya got that in the G29 with 9.8 grs BD, then I must be doing pretty good using the 10grs/10.5grs, I have been using for a long time now.

    Thanks for posting. I'm done with the LS for now in the 10mm and think I'll jst stick with the BD since it has always worked really well for me all these years. Also the 10.0grs 800X with 180XTP has been very accurate and performs well too.

    I'll be sending the KKM back today. Don't know if I'll exchange it, or just get a refund, and stick with the OEM. I have never had a problem with OEM using these BD loads or the 10.0 800X load either. I've about decided to keep the 'trusty G20 SF', and perhaps just sell the G29, since I can find no 'practical use' for it, (fo me) 'out here'. I carry a M1911 45acp when ever we go to a town or city etc. And IF there is to be any hunting it is always my revolvers.

    If I use a Glock it has been the G20 for deer size game only, and that is not very often that he sees action, so The G29 is like brand new, so he may just 'help fund' an AK47/M15 project with a few hundred bucks. We'll see, don't know yet.

    If I do decide to, I'll let it be known around here if someone wants it, it will be a fair price.

    Hey amigo, thanks again for the posting, and I hear ya on the sweat in the face buiness. I'm sure you got worse humidity in Louisiana than we do here in W, Texas. whew !

    Was hoping to hear from nick about his shoot Saturday as well..

    Take care amigo and thanks... ;)

    #33 CanyonMan, Jul 23, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  14. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    Hey, CM... sorry about your weird experiences with LS and your new KKM... thats too bad. I've not had any of those issues with either LS or KKM products. Glad nothing got damaged (except the brass, ha)

    Understood... The rule is, if you don't want or don't need or "no longer" need a gun, sell it and get something you want! No harm done! :)

    Yea, sorry i've taken so long to report back ... CRAZY weekend here with unexpected guests being over at the house for both Saturday and Sunday... I'm working from home today so I can give you all a quick rundown of my range trip Saturday.

    All in all, it was a GREAT time! I met Gator378 (GT forum member) out at one of our state-run ranges with our 10mm's to meet and burn some powder. He brought his Gen1/2 G20 equipped with a JPoint 8MOA reflex sight and Barsto stock length barrel. I'd never before shot a Glock with a reflex sight... I brought my Fusion Hunter and G29SF, neither of which he had shot before. We both had tons of reloads so ammo was no object to us... the only thing preventing us from blasting hundreds and hundreds of rounds downrange that day was 1) the fact that we were sharing a lane and 2) the heat and 3) the rangemaster calling cease-fire every 10-15 minutes. :) By the way, Gator378 is a very nice young man (lol, he's got me by about 30 years, ;)) .... REALLY glad to have met him. I'm sure we will shoot again soon, especially when the weather cools down this fall.

    My shooting impressions of the JPoint is this: Its CHEATING!! Super super awesome ... just place the dot on the target and press the trigger until the sight picture goes away. We were at the rifle range so 25y was our minimum distance to the target. My FIRST target at 25y, standing, with the JPoint G20 is below. I was not used to his stock trigger (which wasn't nearly as light and crisp as my own G20sf) but was VERY pleased with my first attempt.

    First J-Point attempt:

    Here is the pistol (hope he doesn't mind I post this):

    Another shot of the pistol:

    Gator378 really enjoyed both my Fusion AND my G29sf... (I call people by their screen names on public posts unless they say otherwise. PM's and emails are different) ... I think he was more impressed with the Fusion than anything. He kept commenting on how perfect it came up to a sighting picture and how smooth, reliable and accurate it shot. He also commented on how easy the G29 slipped into his pocket. He was also commenting on how my Blue Dot loads ROCKED in a G29. He was wearing the true 10mm smile, and I WAS TOO!

    Most of the loads we shot were either his 200gr Rainier bullets over 12.0gr AA9 (really stout feeling, AA9 seems like a real pusher!) or one of several of my 155, 165, 180 or 200gr Gold Dots or XTP handloads...

    All in a all, great conversations.... we talked reloading and rifles and pistols and everything in between.... really nice meeting another friend, shooter AND 10mm guy! Also, I think I'm in the market for a JPoint for my G20sf... either a JPoint or a Fastfire III... not sure yet. But I'm strangely excited about the whole thing!!!!! I'm sick and twisted, I know....

    One more thing ... my Dad called yesterday and said his inaugural steel plate target testing went well... he's working on fabricating some steel falling targets for our 10mm's and other guns! Can't wait!!!!! More on this later....

    (ps... sorry to post this in your thread CM but I didn't think it warranted its own thread and I plan on doing another range trip soon where I take more shots and more pictures)
  15. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Hey brother, NO appology needed what soever.. Man you are more than welcome to post anything ya want to, and 'any one' can for that matter... NO problem amigo. I enjoyed your post, and "everyone else" that posted on this thread as well... ;)

    Well sounds and looks like you and Gator had a very good day. For this I am Glad some one did ! hahaha !

    Looks like Gator's "Sighting apparatus" was just short of a scope ! ha.

    Yep, it seems most folks who shoot the 10mm with BD always get a rush, especially if it's low light or dark ! haha

    You guys had a great time and that is what matters at the end of the day amigo !

    Yep, I do not understand one thing about my LS experience except what seems to be (seriously) just plain common sense. A lemon barrel. There should not have been all the huge buldges (like OEM) and blown case (or split), and such terrible accuracy that gave 4" and 6" groups at 25 yds, when I can do that good or better than that at 50 to 100. Seriously.

    I can usually punch out the 10 ring at 25 yds, and this G29 has done it a number of times with OEM and BD Hand Loads.

    So, as I say, I have no "practical use" for the G29 and knew this when I bought it, but wanted it so.....

    I really do like my G20SF, and like the 10mm. It is a fun caliber to shoot, and I will never get rid of my G20SF, but unless I find some pactical reason for "me" to justify keeping the G29, He needs to go. The gun is in perfect condition, looks like NIB, and shoots really great with OEM.

    Hey NO cut on KKM here, not at all. I just got a 'lemon'. Anything made by man can go south, we have all bought "something" in our life time more than once, that has been a bummer out of the box .. haha. I am sure another KKM will shoot very well, and IF I do not sell the G29, I will get another KKM or LW just for the heck of it, but really (other than saving brass life) the Oem will punch holes and keep really tighy groups, so who knows at this point.

    More important things in life at present than to worry over this little issue. ;)

    Well, again, pard I am glad you shared and had a great time at the range with Gator, and I am thankful to ALL you guys on the forum here for your help and advice and load sharing, etc.

    On reflection this morning on the LS powder. I have to cut it some slack, "because" I shot it through a lemon barrel.

    I have decided (even within the past few hours) to go load up about 25 rounds of LS (when I get the time) and use the G20 LW barrel that shoots like a champ and drills little groups, and run out side here right quick and I bet it will all be fine. I am convinced there is really no other explanation for my mishap the other day except a bad AM barrel.. I can see NO other reason for such bad brass and bad accuracy..

    I bet it all goes away with the G20 /LW. I will let y'all know asap. Depends on how busy I am/am not, today and tomorrow.

    Well I need to get otta here and re-check an AC system in the horse barn...

    Thanks again for sharing.... Every one.

    Later amigo's, and everyone welcome to share 'whatever ya want' here.. Always welcome, everyone ! ;)

    #35 CanyonMan, Jul 23, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  16. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    Agreed 100% on giving both KKM and Longshot BOTH another chance. Do a LS workup in your G20 setup (a proven setup) and watch the numbers and power fly!

    And I'm sure Kevin @ KKM will do you right whether its refund or exchange.

    Good luck, brother! Stay cool....
  17. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Oh yeh for sure amigo. Nothing I have said has been a rant agaist KKM. I made that clear on the first post. Any one can make a mistake with a product. No, I know he makes good stuff as does LW and others. Man i just got a bad one. Stuff happens. I already talked them (at KKM), their really nice folks. Kevin and Sy, and all of them. No worries there. They are there to help I have NO concern with that.

    I agree, in that I really believe the other "proven barrel" and the G20 will bring those groups back to one nice pokerchip size hole out there for me. I will let y'all know when I can. Pressing issues are upon me right nowm so I best "press outta here" and go deal with them... haha

    Thanks Nick, I agree amigo !

    Stay cool ! right ! Even the rattlers are sizzling out here ! haha.

    LAter my friend

  18. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    Well here is an update.....

    Besides just flat havin to much going on, I have just got "out of the mood" for all my load trial/error stuff for 10mm, "since" I already have loads with BD and AA#9 that really smoke down range and hit hard, and especially with the BD and HC bulllets out of my G20sf..

    My Hornady book vol 6/7 just won't allow for enough LS powder to give vels much better than a 40 S&W. Going 1/2/3/grs over book max to achieve what I can safely do with the BD and AA9, I believe is just not a wise idea. Not with the XTP.

    Hodgdon allows for 8.2grs LS max with a 200gr SIERRA, not XTP.

    Hodgdon allows for 9.5grs LS max with a 180gr SIERRA not an XTP.

    Hornady allows for only 8.2grs LS Max for a 180gr XTP Not SIERRA, and allows only 7.3grs of LS Max for the 200gr XTP, not SIERRA.

    Since the Sierra and the XTP are differentin shank and ogive, I am confident this is why the difference in load data between Hodgdon and Hornady.

    Pushing the 180 XTP to 9.4/9.5grs LS, and the 200gr Xtp 9.2grs LS 'and beyond', is way past 'Hornaday' max, to much so imo, to just end up with what BD and AA#9 can give me more safely so.

    I have 'no doubt at this point', after spending half the night last night checking rechecking, and cross refferencing, and looking once again at my fired brass from all the "FUN" I had Saturday... hahaha. That LS is not to be pushed this far from Hornady Max unsing a Hornady bullet.

    I learned long ago 'mixing components' is not a real good practice 'at times'. With "some things" yes, we can 'sometimes' get away with it, but it is better to stick with the components listed in the book "especially when," we do decide to venture 'over max' for those particular loads and book data lsted...

    Re-read that last sentence amigo's.

    Now I am 'no where near' the weany stage and been doing stuff with loads and guns that will make a bull rider out here yell calf rope ! haha.

    But, there are just "some components" that must be used as listed in the book for that bullet.

    So, if I do that and stay with "Hornady listed data" for the XTP with LS powder in the 10mm, I will end up with not much more than a glorified 40S&W.

    I have NO doubt that these loads I ran the other day in the G29 are what caused such excessive pressure that they cracked open and split a new WW case, and just flat buldged out the rest even in that KKM barrel, which yes, Is a rather lemon-ish barrel I 'happened to get', but I have shot about every type gun you can imagine since I started at 10 years old, and married into a family that had a High 'class' firearms license, so I got to shoot a good many pretty cool things in all those years before his death. (former father in law).

    Saying, I could tell with out question by feel and report, that those LS loadings were just to hot for that weapon, no matter the barrel. Going to a AM barrel is not a reason to to go further past the limits, it helps yes, but is not the reaaon to crank up the powder load, as I know y'all know already, but some newbies may not know this.

    Now, I know several of you have used these LS loads mentioned above with the Xtp's mentioned above, with great results, and no problems, and that is great, and I believe you, and trust the wisdom of those who have done this, but I do suggest we all stand back a tad an give 'thought' to this. Some times luck does not always hold out...

    I have been a wildcatter from oil field, horses, to hand gun loads for 4 & 5 decades, and with many risky things in ranch life and business, and do shoot some over max loads in several revolvers and even in the 10mm G20, BUT, in doing so, we got to watch HOW we're mixing and matching bullets/case's/powders/primers.

    One of my very dear friends is Mic McPherson. Google him up. He gives lectures all over the world on ballistics, and has a loading manual that I think is one of the best out there.. "Metallaic Cartridge Reloading"

    We have spent many phone calls together over a good deal of years, and in all the stuff I mention to him I do, the biggest thing he jumps on me about is "mixing components", mostly bullets from one load book to another.. E.G, using Hornady bullets with SIERRA, etc load data. Vice versa.

    Guys, again, I am NOT rebuking, or pointing fingers, or being smart, or any such nonsense ! I am however saying that the LS powder is not a good choice in these way over max loads (according to Hornady load data for their XTP with LS). "because", again, in staying with the Hornady data for 180/200gr Xtp's, it is nothing more than a tad over 40S&W loadings in velocity. You got to get pretty well 'over Hornady max' to make this powder move that bullet the same AA9 or BD can do 'at book data'.

    Again guys, man, I do some pretty cutting edge things, I really do and 'never been afraid to'. But For me, the LS and XTP's should stay as Hornady suggest in their load book, after what I experienced with it the other day... I realize there are tons of "weany loads" in most of our manuals, "Especially in the Lyman books."

    Talk about liberal load data .. man ! But there is a reason that even in Lee 2nd edition reloading, they specifically say...

    " 200gr JHP's" .. this powder this grs, this powder this grs etc, BUT, All of a sudden, they still say "200gr" but it will say right after it XTP!!!

    Because of shank of bullet/design/ogive, etc, they know that "this bullet" (in this true example) is NOT to be used under their 200gr JHP loadings "except" where noted XTP.

    Same with speer, and Lyman, and other. The bullet is listed for that particular charge weight... YES, I know I know, we can some times, and I some times, go ahead anyway, and even 'push the max'. But in ALL humility, no matter how long ya got away with it, it's only ok, if you've really researched it and "THEN", frankly, 'Know that ya know, that ya know, what your doing." Then procede.

    If this sounds weany/ picking/ scolding... Then the reader has MISSED the point here.... Or I have failed to communicate this properly.

    I did not write this to argue, or point fingers, cause if I point one finger at you, I got three pointing back at me... haha

    I'm just saying that after I a good deal of looking at all this, and loading up some stuff late last night, and looking at some numbers on paper at least. I can see no velocity benifit in LS over the other loadings for the 180gr/200gr XTP. And as I said, staying with Hornady book loads for LS and their XTP, will give poor velocity numbers not much over a 40S&W.

    Well. That is what I see, and got to stand there, so hopefully this will be a suggestion that deserves a hearing... ha

    Never come to the place in loading that we won't at least listen or research a little more.

    So, Final note. The LNIB G29 is for sale if anyone is interested. I have a G20, and it serves my purpose, but have no use for a G29.

    Going to stay with my 40 some year carry "in town" of M1911 45acp. This caliber and platform has always served me well, and never let me down, so I will continue on with it in a couple different platforms, but in 45acp.

    I got the G29 for a "new trial/error" gun for 'in town human SD..' It would be, and is a good round for that as you all know, man no argument there from me... I just am old and set in my ways and like my 45's haha :fred:

    The G20 makes for a good saddle bag gun on horse back in the way out back here, loaded down with a hand full of high caps for the poop hit the fan south of the border runners, if God forbid it was needed, but my EDC ranch carry is a 45LC or 44mag six shot and although I can knock a nat out of his saddle at a looong way with my hog legs, I do favor having higher cap fire power in the ready if called for.

    Thus the G20 rides along. 10mm ? Excellent caliber and SD weapon, and a ok deer gun. But the G29 is up for grabs if someone wants it. Yes it has had maybe 300yds through it I guess. But looks and shoots perfect with the OEM barrel. Internals have been lightly polished by me, and as I said it shoots great.

    I just got no need for it.

    As for the G20. It will and has served well with the high dose's of BD, and max loads of AA#9 for me, so I'll stay there.

    I hope everyone takes this in the spirt given, as most forums are not much more than key board battle grounds. :supergrin:

    Some times in life we learn, some times we need to teach. So, I'll throw this out like a hay bale over the fence, and folks can eat or walk away...

    Man, in over 40 odd years of loading and shooting all the time... I am still learnng ! haha..........

    Well amigo's. Gun for sale. I am satisfied with the G20 and my long time loads. It is a keeper. The KKM goes back for a refund, and the LS, well, it will be a shelf queen, unless I can find use for it some where, but I would not no where at present. All calibers and guns I own already got their "menu"
    lined out for them ! haha.

    This weapon (G29) 'will knock out' the 10 ring with the stock barrel even in semi rapid fire and at 35yds or so.





    Be safe Mi Amigo's !!

    #38 CanyonMan, Jul 24, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2012
  19. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    "Some times in life we learn, some times we need to teach. So, I'll throw this out like a hay bale over the fence, and folks can eat or walk away... "

    Well I choose to eat. :)

    Thanks for posting. I'd be a FOOL if I didn't keep listening and learning in my life, and while ain't done with Longshot yet (by a longshot), I'm going to look REALLY hard at both Blue Dot and AA9 in making my decision as to my main 200gr huntin powder. I still have many more tests to do (mainly accuracy workups) before I decide on what's best for my official hunting powder... and will be taking into effect how safe my loads are in comparison to the power I'm getting.

    I'll pass the word on the G29sf, man!! Stay safe!!!
  20. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Hey Buddy, I am glad someone read my "novel." haha !

    I was hoping The post would not come across in a bad way, but as instructive. I really believe I am on the right track here, BUT, bro in your continued LS testing, do be careful Nick. I really do believe these figures we been talking about are way to much "and for the wrong bullet design." !!

    But, please do keep any information and or updates of what you learn out here before everyone.

    I appreciate the kind and sincere reply amigo. I really thought I should post this (above) after 'my' own shooting experience with LS (at the grains over "Hornady book max"), and after a night full of cross referencing, even "old outdated data here.." And looking through a mountain of load data books in my pretty large library of data books manuals, and others load notes from over the years I have.

    Also, the discussion with Hodgdon. And a friend of mine I mentioned (above) who wrote a load book Metalic Cratridge Reloading," by Mic McPherson." Everyone really needs this thick load manual.. It can be Googled up.

    He is working on the next volume now. It really would be a REAL benefit to everyone to get this load manual.

    So, like I said about the hay... We never feed hay with sticks in it or the stock would choke.

    So, when we're "eating", (information), we need to always spit out the sticks (if their there) and only eat the hay. ;)

    I hope this "hay" (my post above) will help some hungry travlers by here...

    I appreciate you brother.

    Thanks for spreading the word on the G29.
    That puppy shoots good don't it ? I think there was 50/60 rounds in that 35yd 'step out the door test' in the back.

    Good shooting !

    #40 CanyonMan, Jul 24, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012


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