KKM/LW won't shoot my HC bullets ???

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by CanyonMan, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    Well, Things I should be doing, but I need a break here for a few minutes, so...

    All the years I have shot glocks, (especially 10mm's) I have always used the stock barrel for my 200gr hard cast bullet from BT. I have had nothing but excellent results from these OEM barrels, and excellent accuracy even out at very long "play time" range, and very good hunting accuracy at 100yds. for deer (when needed). No problems except the Glock hog belly (swelled case) at 6'oclock.

    Well, I already have a stock length LW and the other day, (as some of you know), I orderd a KKM for the G29 stock length, just for grins, as I 'am not' a AM barrel fan. But I did any way.

    Ok, My 200gr BT WFNGC seated at "any where" between 1.250 to 1.265/.68 'will NOT' go in the chamber all the way.

    3/4 of the case is sticking out of the chamber.

    For those who do not know my loading habits, let me just for time sake say that, the cases go through the RCBS sizer die that is .1K under size and takes all the swell out, then a slight flare at the case mouth so small it is almost not there. Then the powder and bullet seating to MY COAL, and then run through the Lee FCD. (the last step I can take or leave) I have had good results with it on some cartriges so I use it at times..

    Now, the OEM's shoot these like a machine gun.. Bam Bam Bam. NEVER once a problem.

    I step out yesterday with the NEW KKM and notice they ALL stick out the chamber. Same on the LW as well...

    Let me say this... ALL these cases were Brand NEW brass from WW, and from DT nickle plated brass, ALL new , unfired, and still resized as per above... NO Previous Glock fired cases were used......

    Now all I hear from those on GT is how they are shooting BB and and other factory HC bullets with a WFN, and shooting their own handloads as well with a WFN, including BT, and and through KKM's and LW's.

    Even McNett in his older post, test these types of bullets through KKM/LW and shoots his own HC through them as well, as do some of you...

    Not in my KKM or LW. No way. Won't fit. :faint:

    I would have to seat that bullet to almost 1.240 or less to get it to "plop" in, this of course has destroyed my pet loads of 14 years, as I have no more case space to load my fav's.


    Let's hear how you guys are gettng thes bullets to seat all the way in your chamber, and shoot !

    No, it is NOT my hand loading practice's :supergrin: so we can leave that one out. HA ! It is how ever, in these two barrels, the fact that where the case mouth seats in the chamber against the chamber rim/stop ring, this space (chamber) is not 'long enough' to allow MY loads to fit, until I get down to 1.240 and that is just to short, and has no place in my loadings to be of use to get my vels from my OEM usual of 1.260 to 1.268. 1300fps with my recipie.

    OK, stories, thoughts, how comes, why's, what is YOUR experience, and especially any one that has a "RECENT" KKM/LW purchace, and is able to shoot a WFNGC hand load, or a factory BB 'and it seats perfectly' in your chamber...

    I know I can send them both back to KKM/LW and have them reamed back, as I spent much phone time with both of them yesterday, and KNEW this was what they would have to do in order to fix the problem, BUT, should not have been this way in the first place... NOT A RANT here.. I like all the folks at both places, and have a very good friend at LW (personal friend), so 'NO Rants', just want to know what y'alls experiences with this are ! ;)

    Man, what a week here ! :faint:

    There ya go !

    Thanks !


    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
    #1 CanyonMan, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
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  3. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    The DT round of the same bullet seats them to 1.243", for this reason. The BT 200 gr. WFNGC bullet has a wide meplat, and a fat radius ogive, which is the problem in aftermarket chambers. The barrels were not originally designed to shoot this bullet at full length. The only options that remain are, shorten the cartridge, ream the barrel(s), or choose another bullet (in no specific order). The barrel mfg's produce a chamber that will suit 99% of their market. You are the 1% (you're special). This goes to prove, try as you might, you just can't please everyone. If it were me, and I were really stuck on that round, I'd have one, or both barrels (not at the same time) reamed, and move along, fat, dumb and happy.

  4. dm1906

    dm1906 Retired SO

    Hey, CM. Welcome back!
  5. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Hey amigo, Thank you very much for the welcome back, The kind words and post on the other thread of Nick's, and the info here... ;)

    Yeh, as I said, I knew I was going to have one of them "reamed." I just 'did not know' that they were making them this way, as I always use OEM with really great results on all my cast loadings.. So "I knew the solution", but did not know if it was just "ME" getting the Luck of the draw barrels that would not have the chamber length I needed, or if ALL of them were cut this way... ha.

    Well, as you said, "I am special..." Ha Ha ! Well said !

    Well, then here is the plan. #1. Learn to stay with my convictions. ( I should not have bought an AM barrel) Ha.

    #2.. Ask before I buy !

    #3.. Let LW ream the barrel to work with my "pet load" BT 200gr bullet, I load at 1.260/1.263 'to be real specific', for my best (OEM) results at 1300fps. And leave the KKM alone since it does handle the 200gr XTP's and all copper jacketed stuff real well in the G29. There. All fixed. :supergrin:

    #4.. Continue to use my "old faithful' OEM in the G20 which has an unusually tight chmaber and leaves very little hog belly (buldge) on the brass which my .1K under Size die wipes right out. Been shooting them from this for a loooong time and NO problems at all.

    Only really use it (G20) as a "saddle bag" back up gun out here on the ranch, with the mags loaded with the 200gr BT, and some times when in the mood a deer or somethin. I wanted to toss the little G29 in the truck with the several other guns... haha, just to have it there if I wanted it for some ctritter runing across the place, or for an ocasional 'take to town ' gun.

    Well amigo, thanks. I just did not know they were making them like this. I hear sooo very many folks on here saying they shoot HC bullets like BB, and hand loads like BT and etc, through their AM barrels, so I figured it was all good to go and I'd give it a try.

    I had an AM LW waaaay back some time ago, and I guess i never shot the HC through it. Got rid of it, and then later on, again, bought the "present" LW stock length, and 'the other day' bought the KKM, and have not really played with it much except for jacketd stuff, then yesterday tried my HC hand loads and :wow: 1/4 of the case sticking out the chambers on both, but ploped right down into the OEM's ! haha.

    Just wondered 'HOW everyone else was getting away with this' I reckon was the reason for the post.

    Well, we'll ream the LW, leave the KKM alone and just shoot Jacketed bullets from it in the G29, and carry on!

    Thanks dm1906 !
    Stay safe my friend !

    #4 CanyonMan, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  6. My LWD barrel didn't like 200gr WFNGC's out past 1.25", but I sent it back and it feeds them @ 1.26" flawlessly now. The only time I ever had a problem where the cases were sticking out that far, was when LWD sent me a Blindmarked (and mismarked) 10-40 barrel that should have been just a regular 10mm barrel.
  7. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Wow ! "mismarked" ain't good ! Well, I loaded some BT WFNGC Dummy rounds up today while I had a few seconds, and even at 1.270 (that is a stretch) for grins, it went right on in the OEM G20.

    I have to drop down all the way to 1.240 to barely get a good "plop" into the chamber on the LW and the KKM. I cannot deal with that COAL and my current loading without building up waaaaay to much pressure. :wow:

    According to LW (talking to a friend of mine there) They were freaked out that I am having NO feed problems (with jacketed bullets) of any kind size weight or shape, up to 200grs in my LW barrel as tight as 'this' particular chamber is. The LW is waaaay tighter than the KKM. Man I am talking really weird tight, and almost not a speck of six o' clock exposed... Really tight. Yet never a problem with hot jacketed stuff. :dunno:

    It is one of the older LW's. The newer ones have had the chambers opened 'ever so slightly', like KKM told me 'they did' also, for better feeding/relibility, and especially (said KKM) for those who want to conceal carry with their barrel and not worry about reliablity issues. I do believe this, as there is a world of difference in the LW "I have" for the G20 and the KKM in case support and chamber fit... I do NOT have one of the newer LW's (obviously).

    I have decided that since my LW shoots so dang good with all manner of jacketed bullets, I will just send LW a dummy round for my 200 gr BT load at 1.260 ( I can live with that) and buy another barrel from them, and have them ream it to work with the HC.. That way nothing will/might /could/ go south with the one I got now that shoots and feeds perfectly and is extremely accurate.

    I knew I would have to have reaming done at the outset. I just wrote this thread to ask how many others are having the same problem, since all I seem to hear is how folks are shooting DT, BT, nd other WFN 'hand loads especially,' through these barrels with out a hitch. Unless they are seating them down to 1.240 or less.. That is just to deep IMO for a 200gr bullet that is loaded for hunting or loaded hot.

    Well MH, I thank ya amigo for the reply, and glad you got things taken care of there with your barrel. I wish I would have just left everything alone, and not got on the AM benge, as I was doing fine all these years with the OEM..

    Well, get an itch and ya scratch it I reckon ! haha.

    Good shooting
    Stay safe pard.

    #6 CanyonMan, Jul 19, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  8. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    Yea I think the free bore is tighter on those AM barrels and those WFN bullets are touching the short free bore untill you seat them down to allow the space required to feed.

    Good luck!
  9. Yep, either a short/tight throat, or just the chamber is too tight for cast bullets. My LW barrel was that way; it wouldn't take .401" cast bullets with most brass. I lapped the chamber using a couple pieces of fired brass, no issues now. You only need to remove a couple thousandths, so it's an easy job.

    I firelapped mine too, to open up the throat a bit. The LW rifling needs some smoothing anyway. CM, being a sixgun guy, I assume you're familiar with firelapping, using your cast bullets? You'll have to open up the chamber first, of course.
  10. My LW barrel is one of the better supported ones as well, and I had to open up the chamber to make it run hardcast well. I did it with a fired case like Yondering said, and then some sandpaper on a dowel to polish, and it works fine now. The idea of keeping one for jacketed is good, but the new one you get may have really poor case support, which would sort of defeat the purpose of buying a new barrel...

    I preferred the factory barrel originally, but having an extended length that feeds anything and adds a bit of fps is pretty tough to beat.
  11. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Pretty much right on.. Throat is just to tight !

    I just can't justify seating that 200gr with 'my' loading down to 1.240. Plus I am in no mood to work up a new load... haha. I like to find what works for me and then 'settle in,' and just stay there. I'm kinda boring that way. Ha!

    All my revolver loads are in my head, and 'settled in' waaaay back years ago, and that, as they say, is that. Same with the 10mm (I don't use it to often) I got two pet loads, and you and Nick got me started on looking at LS powder, so now I have worked up a load for that, and I am done.

    Then came the AM barrel issue with the HC. But as I said, my OEM has, for all these years worked perfectly and with tremendous accuracy on my 1300fps hand loads, with HC, so my tail is still waggin, I'm happy, and am not real concerned over all this. ;)

    The 10mm is just a saddle bag emergency gun anyway, for the most part.

    Well amigo, thanks ! I guess the industry figures on more jacketed stuff being used than HC so they expect a few to be sent back for reaming, or folks can do it themselves... :dunno:

    Stay safe !

    #10 CanyonMan, Jul 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  12. I have a few KKM barrels. One has so little freebore, I litterally can't load any of my cast loads. To get cast to work in that barrel my OAL's are ridiculous. Another one of my KKM barrels came with so much freebore, I can load just about anything, as long as I want, similar to a stock barrel.

    I believe KKM will make the barrel anyway you want. It seems the defaults are the lands pretty close to the chamber and a throat right at the bottom SAAMI spec. I think the barrel I got that has all the freebore maybe was one they cut for someone that ended up not getting shipped. Guess which one of my KKM barrelks gets the most use?
  13. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Yep, Like I just replied to Shadow, the throat area is just to tight for the .401, and the 'Ogive' of that fat WFN bullet.

    No problem on a "do it yourself fix." In my situation, I have 'no real need' for the HC in the G29 KKM. If so, it has done well with the OEM also. So, I will just leave it alone, and shoot it with the KKM in it 'as is' with jacketed stuff, or pop the OEM back in for HC. (which would be "pretty rare", cause I would just use the G20 if I want to shoot HC).

    As for the G20 LW barrel I've had here for a long time, well, as I said, I 'just now' am discovering it doesn't like the HC.

    Truly just have not messed with it that much, except to know that with the jacketed stuff it is a tack driver even at very long range, and at 100yds a real winner in the accuracy department, so if it ain't broke........ ;)

    I got to much going on at present out here to really mess with it right now, and although it is no big deal, it will be 'one more thing' I don't have to do at present. HaHa..

    I really rather just keep my present LW as is, since it is "one" in 'Lord knows how many' that shoots so dang well in every area with jacketed stuff. See I had it hand picked, and the barrel crowed 'the way I wanted it' long ago, and had some other things I wanted my way with it, and they did a great job at LW and man this puppy really is a keeper. So we'll leave him alone.. Ha. (I just did not figure 'at that time' about it 'not going to like' the .401 HC) :faint:

    I'm like you in the fact that I'd rather do it myself.. ha. But at present, all I can pass off on someone else to do, I will ! ha. Just got to many irons in the fire out here pard.

    Thus the reason to just allow my bud at LW to pick me out a good one with me sending in a few of my resized cases/dummy HC loads, and let him ream it and send it to me for a HC only barrel... Simple way out for me here. I don't use them enough any way to warrant any futher work or attention. If they'll hit clay pigeons at 100yds, that works for me. :supergrin:

    Fire lapping... ? Yes sir ! You learn about that and throat diameter/s, and forcing cone angle and distance to cylinder, when ya pick up your first hog leg, "if your a serious pistolero." :supergrin:

    This little senerio of mine here, does't really have need of any of that, and I am sitting pretty with everything in the accuracy department, so I will just take my lesson's learned in all this, and go on. Namely. I did not need an AM barrel ! Ha. Although the G20 LW "I have now," does have the edge over the OEM in the jacketed dept, I can still use the G20 OEM in the HC dept, and it is a very good shooter.

    This gets to compilcated, and it ain't fun any more ! haha.

    Thanks amigo !
    Good shooting.

  14. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Yep, like you, I got a really tight fit in the entire chamber area, and as I (think i said) also in the six 'o clock area as well, but it feeds excellent !

    You and Yondering, (as I told him above) are 'correct' in the fact that I can "fix" the issue easily. But (see post above) in 'this case', as long as I send in a sized case and dummy HC load to LW, (which I already talked to them about all this) he will see to it I get a good fit and all will be well for the HC the way I have described what I want to him.

    As I told Yodering, all this gets to complicated and it just ain't fun any more ! haha.

    I'll let ya know how the 'new one" turns out for the HC. I am sure it will be fine, especially sending in my sized case and dummy HC round. Just don't want to mess with the LW I 'already have', as it is as close to perfect as I've seen in a long time in a semi auto barrel. (with the jacketed stuff).

    My real issue here, is just findng out after all this time, that these AM barrels are not geared for the type of HC we seem to like and shoot. I must admit, that my reason is I have never been interested in them, (AM's) and always used OEM with outstanding results. I ordered the LW for the G20, (as described above to Yondering) 'my way' with some things I wanted done, waaay back, and just never messed with it to much except a few times here and there with jacketed stuff.
    But amigo, it shoots to good to mess with at this point ! ;)

    Glad you got one as well with a really snug fit.. Keep it ! I'll let y'all know how the 'HC only' one turns out.

    Thanks Any Cal !
    Stay safe amigo !

    #13 CanyonMan, Jul 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  15. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    Yep, and yep..

    Well, I am sure finding out here in this thread, that I am not the only one with this "no HC" problem... ha.

    I hear ya on the 'very short' COAL. Man I just cannot run down to 1.240 with my particular loading and 200gr HC without creating a nuclear bomb ! haha

    All this stuff can be fixed easily with do it yourself, as we have talked about here with a few other guys on this thread, or just take my lazy way out.. Actually I am just not wanting to mess with my already good shooter LW.

    Ordering another LW the way 'I want it' is a time saver for me, for only 125.00, I think it is. I really don't need to do that either, as the OEM in the G20 is an excellent shooter at about any range I've tried it on out out here in the canyons.

    Well, I am sorry for the old boy that did not get his barrel from KKM, but glad you got it ! haha. Enjoy it amigo !

    Thanks man!
    Stay safe WW !

  16. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    Great thread, btw, guys!

    I'd have to agree with dm and shadow... "The only options that remain are, shorten the cartridge, ream the barrel(s), or choose another bullet (in no specific order)." and "too little throat".

    I, personally, had no toubles with LSWC or BTB in my stock length Barsto G20. Never had any issues with any of my other AM barrels, either, with WFN (Federal, Barsto, KKM, LW, Fusion). Guess I was just lucky! I do usually set my BTB's to about 1.24x.... maiinly because my Fusion mag doesn't like 1.26" btb loads... they jam up the mag.
  17. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Howdy Nick ole bud... Hope your doin well amigo !

    Yeh, when I saw this "jam" in the new KKM G29, with the HC bullets, and then went and got the LW out of the safe, and 'same thing,' I knew I was in for some 'reaming' etc, to make things work.

    Since you've most likely read a bunch of the thread, ya already know my thoughts and plans no doubt.

    I am going to "wring out" the G29 KKM tomorrow with a number of loads and bullet weights and powders, and see how well he is in the feeding and accuray depat. If he passes the test, then I will just leave him in the gun, and do as I said above to the other guys. I'll just have Dan at LW take my Dummy loaded 1.260 200gr BT WFNGC, and make it work in a new barrel and check A to Z for me, and then I will have a different crown put on it, and be good to go with an AM for 'all cast shooting' in the G20.

    Again, always got the OEM G20 as well, which at 100yds with a good Jacketed bullet takes Texas deer, and pops clay pigeons ! Can't find fault there my friend. ;)

    Man I don't know if we can allow you in our elite club of those who have AM barrels that won't/would not shoot HC bullets..

    ALL yours work ! haha. Buy a new one in a different brand and see if you can join our ranks of misfits and barrel reamers ! :tongueout:

    Hey amigo, glad that all yours came through for ya... :cool:

    Thanks Nick !
    I'll let ya'll know how all the max and a tad over max loads worked out in the morning, with the KKM in the G29..

    Will be shooting short range 25 yds, to long range 100yds, for serious accuracy. And then playing at Blanco Canyon behind the house here, at out to 300 yds on caliche rocks up against a giant red clay canyon wall for grins to see what it will do. You KNOW when you hit them, it is like an exploding sack of flour ! haha.

    180gr XTP's with 10.1grs 800X.
    180grs XTP's with 10.7grs Blue Dot.
    180gr XTP's with 9.5grs Long Shot.
    200gr XTP's with 9.2grs Long Shot.
    200gr XTP's with 10.5grs Blue Dot

    I double checked all these before I typed them this time.. :supergrin:

    One of the favorite places here on the ranch for shooting out to 600 yds. A very "Humbling place..." haha.


    So, we will see tomorrow, If it don't rain, (and I really hope it does) we need it, and forgot what it looked like ha. And will let y'all know.

    Stay safe amigo Nick !

    Buenos Tardes'

    #16 CanyonMan, Jul 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  18. _The_Shadow

    _The_Shadow Ret. Fireman

    CM, I wish I were closer, I'd run over and give you a hand...anyway will be on the look out for the range report! Enjoy! :2gun:
  19. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    Hey your welcome to come "give me a hand" shootin any time at all. You would really like this "canyon wall shotting. It breaks up all the bordem of the steel plates... ha. Just like shooting sacks of flour.

    Hard to tell from the pic above, but there is plenty of space down below (from the high rim I am on with the camera) to shoot from point blank, backing all the way back through a "cut" we got dozed through the mesquite and cactus, to shoot about 300 yds. Then, on up to the ridge to shoot the 400/600yd stuff... If'in ya can! ;)

    Like I said, this should be called canyon 'humble.' :supergrin:

    Many places on the ranch to shoot, but this is one of the safest for livestock sake. Shooting cuttin horses would not make your day no matter how great your gun worked ! haha.

    Here is my son at the gate 'behind the ranch house': There are also (as you can see) some very good places up in the mountain run offs to shoot as well. There is no lack of space here to shoot and play.. But mostly work ! ;)


    Thanks amigo ! Any time at all !

    #18 CanyonMan, Jul 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  20. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    CM, thanks for the beautiful pics.... can't wait to hear about your shooting event!

    I'm actually going to the range in the morning to wring out the Fusion and G29 with about half a case of handloads... no chrony but still should be fun. I'm supposed to be meeting "Gator" from here on the forums for the first time. Maybe he'll let me shoot his JPoint G20!! :p
  21. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle


    Thanks Nick !

    Man sounds like fun for you tomorrow, and like you, as you know, I am chrony poor at present till I can replace the sucker.. But should know all I want to know without it any way..

    Pretty cool that your metting with Gator. Seems like a nice guy on here. I hope you two have a great time tomorrow and it's always cool to meet a new bud, especialy who likes shooting ! ;)

    Just had to drop in that "Fusion' didn't ya ! :whistling:

    Have fun amigo..
    Y'all stay safe

    Let's hear from you over here as well, feel free man.

    I do hope it rains on us tomorrow, as we need it more than real bad, if so, i will have to wait. Hope it rains all week slow and steady and light. If not, I'll be out blastin away.


    #20 CanyonMan, Jul 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012

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