Kill Someone To Save Another's Life?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by jeremy_283, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

    True enough. BUT some states reasonable belief for intervening in third party situations is not good enough. You must be right, not just reasonable. Kentucky sounds like one, and I believe Michigan is another (at least that's what was stated in my cpl class).
    Everyone needs to know what the law is in the state they are in before going in with guns blazing so to speak...


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  2. I did when I was 17 (1988) and spent just over 4 months in jail before I was cleared.

    Your best bet is to mind your own business unless it is a pure innocent who will be harmed by your inaction.
    #63 blkt2, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  3. GKglock324

    GKglock324 GKshooter

    real life situation was a woman being chased by a guy with a gun..her clothes were ripped, I may have posted this before, but assume nothing. Turned out the woman was a fugitive and was being pursued by under cover officers..jump the gun and shoot the guy would be a bad idea...
  4. Mister_Beefy

    Mister_Beefy Legal & Proper

    ok, I get where you're coming from.

    but I also agree with what bren said, sometimes things are more complicated that just "be good and everything will be ok"

    and issue that is sometimes simple, but often complicated.
  5. Not ever being in a situation where I've had to even unholster a gun in a self defense situation I would hope that if I encountered a situation where the loss of innnocent life was at stake that I could help, either by calling 911 or other non-lethal methods before resorting to using my firearm.

    I hope that I'm NEVER in a position where I have to use lethal force, for myself or anyone else, but I would hope that if my wife (or any other innocent person) was being attacked and facing great bodily harm, rape, or death that someone would step up and attempt to stop the attack if they could do so safely.

    As another poster stated, shooting (or killing) someone is a very serious than can impact your life and future in many negative ways.
    #66 HarleyGuy, Apr 6, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  6. It would have to be more than 100% certain. In many situations, you see something but do you really know what is going on? Say you hear screaming, sprint around the corner & see some big guy pounding the crap out of a smaller guy. You engage, he refuses to stop, maybe even turns on you, so you shoot him. Come to find out, he was the vic & the guy he was pounding was the attacker & there is a knife laying nearby. You just never know. There are probably less than 5 instances where I could be 100% sure at a glance what is going on, everything else is an educated guess. I am not risking everything for an educated guess. In most cases not directly involving you or your family, it's better to do the smart thing instead of the perceived right thing.:dunno:
    #67 fredj338, Apr 6, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  7. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Another point I teach in classes, is that not knowing the law can not only result in you doing something that is illegal, it can also result in you losing the fight because you hesitate to do something that is legal.
  8. OldArcher

    OldArcher Gospel Carrier

    Simply put, yes.

    Protect the innocent. Make sure that there's no other alternative, but when sure, take out the trash...

    As you may not get the opportunity to yell, "Drop Your Weapon," try to make sure that there are witnesses to the event. There may not be any, so make sure that you have a good lawyer on speed dial.

    Regardless, defend and protect the innocent...

    OA, out...
  9. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

    Very good point, its a bit of threading the needle. Neither too anxious, nor too hesitant. You need to know the law before going in guns blazing, or guns grazing... ;)

  10. I followed that one for a while. Needless to say, I learned more than a thing or two from his experience.

  11. Bren, you've never failed to say thoughtful things well !
  12. Most people will never act out the actions they previously thought they could. It's easy to sit and tell yourself you would do this if that ever happened. Actually breaking through the mental barriers in a high stress situation and performing isn't an easy task. This being the internet there is no point. So let's go through some possibilities to consider before involving yourself in a situation.

    Let's pretend that this being a "public location" there are other people besides yourself, the bad guy, and the innocent victim.

    1) Do you know the full story? Do you know why the bad guy is fixing to harm the good guy? Is the bad guy actually the good guy? I hope the answer was obvious.

    2) If you attempt to take a life (which most have never done and just been ok with) and fail what will happen when the bad guy turns on you? Better not miss with all of that going through your mind and the stress of the situation bearing down on you.

    3) Are you action even legal? Does it even matter? I mean could you live with yourself the rest of your life knowing you could have helped?

    4) Are your rounds going to travel past the bad guy and harm another innocent victim?

    5) Are there cops around that might mistake you for a bad guy?

    6) Is your family there? Could they possibly get involved in a threatening situation?

    7) Does the bad guy have friends that are going to turn on you?

    8 Could I keep going? Yes.

    Learn the laws of your state. Then hope it never happens. If it does, good luck :)
  13. 9) Does your state have a stand your ground law? Virginia, no. Florida, yes.

    10) Does your state allow citizens arrests? Utah, yes if the crime is committed against the public. (shoplifting, property damage, mass shootings at a mall, etc.)
  14. In Texas it's yes jeremy, you can use force or lethal force if need be.

    But talking MORALLY, if the attacker is trying to kill a innocent person, you bet your bippy I'd use lethal force if need be, screw the laws.

    #75 Deaf Smith, Apr 7, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  15. Walking into an altercation can be like walking very late into a movie.

    In one case, what looks like a woman being attacked was an undercover police officer arresting a prostitute who resisted arrest. Guy with a gun tried to be a hero there.

    I hear enough about victims attacking police in order to protect their attacker/lover.

    Also, maybe someone called 911 and the police arrive while you have your gun out.

    Maybe you put yourself in the middle of a gang fight.

    Anyway, you need to assess the situation and whether you really need to be there.

    Police get the big bucks and public adulation because this is their playground.
  16. One of the main rational argument against CCW for the general public is that for a lot of people, packing a gun makes them feel like a superman. It is argued that these people will not only tend to act rashly and imprudently, they can not be convinced that their planned actions are rash and likely to lead to a bad outcome. The biggest problem is that it is people like these that are most eager to CCW and are represented disproportionately among those that carry.

    Sadly, reading this thread makes those criticisms appear justified.
  17. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    It's all relative - the more "timid" you are, the more "rash" and "imprudent" others appear to be.
  18. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    I had to come back this morning and find that link and refresh on the facts of Mario Jenkins' case. I'm off to teach a class on Use of Force law to some probation and parole officers in a couple of hours.

    The part in the Jenkins story about the Orlando officer thinking Jenkins was pointing the gun at him wasn't in the original reports that I used for class, but now this one throws in another 3rd party use of force angle, with the college student jumping the undercover cop because he thought he was a criminal.
    #79 Bren, Apr 11, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
  19. Look, if someone is being beaten to the point that you're concerned about the safety of the "victim", then the beater IS the bad guy. Stick to Suarez' advice--IDOL, Immediate Defense of Life. I can't think of a single jurisdiction where this is illegal, excepting Illinois, where carry is illegal. I'm sticking to IDOL, making sure I know what's going on, giving the bad guy a chance to come down to earth, and yes, I'm defending life.


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