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KB! In New G20. Ideas? What Next?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by pasky2112, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. pasky2112

    pasky2112 Senior Member

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    Respectfully, maybe it's semantics but when I see a small area sticking out further then the rest of the case, i call it a bulge. When the case expands uniformly, respectively to the chamber, I call that expansion. Please, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just try to portray what i see.
    Now I can DEFINITELY see what you mean by 'bulge' looking at the pic dkf posted earlier! But I've never had anything even close to that come out of any firearm of mine...it'd scare the S#!t outta me! ;-)

    I've never had a fired case that wasn't resized fit into my chambers...factory or reload...pistol or rifle.

    I thought they looked OK, too. That's why I didn't stop. Stopping with a case bulge as you defined it would be a no brainer. Also, yes, I use a Dillon 550b. But I use it almost like a single stage when I start new loads. That is, I stop and check the rnd at ea stage...measure powder, check OAL after seating and check case mouth diameter before/after i crimp on a FCD. I crimp enough to take out the flare and prevent setback. I believe I mentioned it in a prev post, but I pull the first few rnds to check my crimp. I've done the same routine for 1000's of rifle and pistol rnds since I learned it.

    Thanks again,

    - Dave
     
  2. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

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    pasky2112
    The easiest way to prevent a KB? Don't chase the velocity demon! Why must you achieve 1200 fps? I've been a reload for 3 decades. And I gaurentee you the best preformance and accuracy is almost always achieved below Max charges! Do not reload to get max velocity - go for performance and accuracy and you'll not have a KB !:whistling: Answer this simple question what would that load do at 1200fps that a load of 1100-1150 fps wouldn't do?:supergrin:
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012

  3. pasky2112

    pasky2112 Senior Member

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    I agree with you and Fred about the case bulging. What I call a bulge isn't appearantly what most of you would see as a bulge. See the pics i posted for clarification...hopefully. I'm not exactly a pro photog ;)
     
  4. pasky2112

    pasky2112 Senior Member

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    Agreed...100%. I got caught up in the 'muscle car' syndrome...Chuck Yeager, etc. My mistake. Live and learn...thankfully. Hopefully, for some time, others will see this thread and it will stop them from making a mistake. That's why i mostly bared it all out here.

    Thank you,

    - Dave
     
  5. F106 Fan

    F106 Fan

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    So, were you weighing each charge and filling the cases with a powder funnel or were you using the Dillon powder measure?

    Today I trickled some .308 loads. The Uniflow would throw 41.7 to 41.9 ALMOST every time and then it would throw 42.3. Just once in a while.

    I would toss the heavy charge back in the powder measure and start over. But, in every case, I trickled the charge up to 42.2 gr. This was with IMR 4064 - a stick powder.

    If you were using a powder measure there are any of a number of things that could go wrong. However, AA-7 is a spherical powder so it should meter pretty well.

    Richard
     
  6. fredj338

    fredj338

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    You can't realy extrapolate vel accurately in regards to powder charge. Most powders will not show a linear vel increase as the pressures increase. It may be diff from say 11.5-12gr vs 12-12.5gr. That can be a dangerous assumption depending on powders.
     
  7. fredj338

    fredj338

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    If you can see it, it's a case bulge. Again, 1000s of 10mm loaded & shot, some hot, never a case bulge. If Glock's are that sloppy, how much accuracy can you expect from a stock bbl?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  8. pasky2112

    pasky2112 Senior Member

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    I did weigh ea charge on my <$100 scale. ;-) I had noticed quite some time ago that if I rammed up the press (550b) but didn't throw a charge...(maybe because i was adjusting another die), the next charge would often throw heavy...from +.1g-.5g depending on the powder and how many times I rammed the press. Personally, I feel this is a design flaw but whatever. As a result of this discovery, I dump the following 3 throws back into the hopper and wiegh the 4th, which usually has the desired charge +/- .1g. In this case, if it weighed 11.9g-12.0g, I'd funnel it back into the case, seat a bullet and move on. Anything else I dumped and recharged. I found AA#7 does meter nicely, though. But I follow this procedure, irregardless.

    That said, at this point, I'm not going to disagree with the possibility that one 'got by me' and could possibly have been .1g-.5g heavy. I'll go under oath saying I weighed them in the above manner. But we all know how that goes. I'm guessing this may have be what pushed to KB, in conjunction w/ the other possibilities already mentioned previously. (data cross-checking, frequent scale calib., etc.)
     
  9. F106 Fan

    F106 Fan

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    But in this specific case, as I posted above, there is almost exactly a 50 fps change in velocity per 0.5 gr change in charge from 950 fps to 1200 fps. In the progression, there are a couple of 0.6 gr changes (vs 0.5 gr) which means there is a little roundoff going on. For all practical purposes, over the range of 950 .. 1200 fps, the curve is linear. But that's for this powder with the HP-XTP bullet as tested by Hornady in a Delta Elite with 5" barrel.

    Other loads will vary all over the place...

    Richard
     
  10. pasky2112

    pasky2112 Senior Member

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    I respect that, but I've never shot a round, factory load or otherwise, out of a factory glock bbl that didn't have the case shape, as you describe. Yet, the Glocks I've shot were all been plenty accurate for me. Certainly no less accurate than any other manuf. stock setup apple/apples. Frankly, I have .40 cases shot through nothing but my stock G23 that have been reloaded 15x's. They still reload fine and shoot to POA...whether that's where I'm looking or not. ;) maybe a thread on chamber vs. barrel regarding accuracy would be an interesting topic.
     
  11. Colorado4Wheel

    Colorado4Wheel

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    Enough to kill a bear at 25yds. That is what a 10mm is for right ;)
     
  12. Colorado4Wheel

    Colorado4Wheel

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    Any volume measure is at risk of having a charge get heavier when you bump the machine. THEY ALL share that characteristic. When the open chamber is under a big hopper of powder bumping the hopper makes it settle into the chamber.
     
  13. Colorado4Wheel

    Colorado4Wheel

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    I always chart the velocity vs charge when working things up. If it gets non-linear/erratic I am done and back it down.
     
  14. pasky2112

    pasky2112 Senior Member

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    Hi SARDG. Thanks for helping to protect my state...and country. Godspeed.
    Quick question... when you say you check your primers and brass, what exactly do you mean? Are you just referring to them being seated correctly while loading or flattened/cratered after firing? Just curious if there was something else you do for safety measures. Also, I was thinking handguns..not rifles. Brass work in rifle loads...whole 'nother world. ;)

    Thanks again!

    - Dave
     
  15. Colorado4Wheel

    Colorado4Wheel

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    For the money the Dillon Scale is way nicer then that one. I had that one, it didn't work. Got my money back. But that thing feels cheap and flimsy compared to a Dillon.
     
  16. WiskyT

    WiskyT Malcontent

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    Agreed, those cases wouldn't have stopped me either. FWIW, I don't consider those cases "bulged". The one posted by DFK is what I think of when people say "bulged".
     
  17. pasky2112

    pasky2112 Senior Member

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    yeah. I understand where you're coming from.
    I addressed this earlier... some handloaders discussed what they described a phenomenon of AA#7 flattening primers even in sub-max loads. Normally, I would have stopped with a flattened or cratered primer... yes.

    Anyone else heard of this?
     
  18. Thanks Dave. I don't load rifle yet, but expect to get a 'round tuit' eventually. I've been gathering Coast Guard 7.62 LC brass at the range for some time.

    I currently load 9 mil and .45 with a 650, but have quick change kits and dies for .38 Spcl and 10mm. Ergo, my interest in this thread.

    I don't do any special checking while loading except eyeing each powder charge. And I have the Dillon Powder Check system which is mostly good for noticing no charge or a double charge. Because I began loading ONLY to produce accurate, powder-puff match ammo, I am a bit picky (anal) and spot-check every 20th round or so for primer seating, OAL, crimp, gauge, and gross weight (which gives me a ballpark of correct powder weight.) With my 9 mil recipe, a double charge wouldn't fit in the case, but I don't want - or really expect - no-powder loads. Any real cartridge check comes later with a guage check, and then when thet're boxed I can see and feel out-of-place primers. I use Starline brass and MG bullets - sound familiar?

    The brass and primer check I was reffering to was after the round was shot, looking for signs of anything being wrong or on the edge of being wrong. I've always thought the Federal primers I use look a little flat, but they're soft and others assure me there is no problem. I've also never had any kind of bulge in the 9s and spent brass from my G17 and 34 falls right back into the case gauge after being fired. Not exactly so with my .45s and G30 - but nothing unusual.

    Unlike you however, I was pushing the lower limits of a charge - what can I load to be accurate, still make 125 PF, run the slide 100%, and be a soft shooter!

    On another note... I used to get close to your neck of the woods frequently for Space Shuttle Launch patrols throughout the year on the Banana River, but we all know what's happened to US Manned Space Flight. :upeyes:
     
  19. Taterhead

    Taterhead Counting Beans

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    I completely agree with the part in bold.

    I don't want to belabor the point, but we must be talking about different things. And I am certainly not advocating that it is safe to shoot loads that produce abnormally-bulged brass.

    Glocks DO have a distinctive expansion pooch ("bulge") that you can see with your eyes (or at least I can since my eyes are still hanging in there -- for now :rofl:). That is normal. 9, 40, 10, whatever.

    I can pick up a piece of range brass and usually tell if it has been shot in a Glock without looking at the primer strike because of that distinctive little bulge. There is a bit of asymmetrical expansion about the pressure band. That will be different than your 1006 or Delta. The photos posted by the OP show what I am talking about clearly. It is a normal for a Glock. It is not unsafe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  20. Have never seen, used or even fondled the Dillon, so can't personally compare. I can say that the RCBS 1500 (I have the combo) seems beefier than the BE High Performance, but I've never had a problem with the BE.