jesus did not abolish the old covenant (mosiac law)

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Geko45, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. I believe it is unjust to curse someone for any reason (Are you teaching this to your "chick's daughter?), to say a man is good and moral but when your temper flares ,you call them "ignorant" and "hypocrites" .

    Lie? YOU called me a good man and then called me a hypocrite.Which is the truth? Both?

    If you're referring to the "Old Testament" question, much of your argument was out of context or incorrect in relation to the New Covenant. If you frustrate so easily, you should consider "anger management" sessions.


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  2. According to who? Others disagree with you and claim Jesus violated Sabbath. I get that you think Rabbinic Law is not inspired by God but if it is not then neither is Mosaic law as Deuteronomy was most likely not a part of the original Torah but added much later during the kingship of Josiah. In which case the law never meant anything to begin with and Christ's fulfillment meant nothing nor did his sacrifice. He was just a political trouble maker and was killed for it.

    Nevertheless you are cherry picking what parts you want to apply as the word of God and discounting those that simply get in the way of how you'd like to view scripture.

    Jesus did whatever he liked and defended his actions by basically saying "I'm the son of God.. I can do that." He had to high tail it across the Jordan after claiming he and God were one.

    You should tell yourself the same.

    I don't need to read some blog or article written by some supposed "Scholar" or Expert that has twisted the bible to meet up with your world view. We've been over this. Until your view is the world wide accepted view... it's only an opinion. Interpretations cannot be proven factual because you're giving the words meanings or intentions other than what they actually say. You are reading what it says and then deciding what you'd like it to mean.

    Again, insults do nothing to prove your case.

    Says someone who did not write these laws and was not present in the times in which they were enforced. Understand that the ancient Jews held the ENTIRE old testament to be the inspired and inerrant word of God. Picking and choosing what passages you'd like to be more Godly or less is just your attempt at forcing the bible to agree with your world view. Or I would be more accurate to say you choose the twisting of scripture that most agrees with your world view.

    Again, insulting me, while it might make you feel better, does nothing to substantiate your point.

    I know... you select whatever agrees with your personal world view. You like your God to hate all the same people you do.

    I find it funny that this statement was preceded by this one...


    Well it's a little more substantial than hitching my wagon to whoever agrees with my world view. I used to be just like you, but eventually I saw right through the ancient nonsense in the bible.

    Christ called the healing his work. It is forbidden to work on the Sabbath. It doesn't say building a space ship is forbidden on the Sabbath either... but the "Spirit" of the law was to rest as God rested. And Jesus did not rest, he performed his work.

    Doesn't change the fact that it's true. You reject any interpretation of the bible that doesn't sit well with your chosen view.

    You made a silly analogy then. You likened God to a Politician. Which actually is probably the most accurate way to see God's word. It was constructed by men to control men. However... once again... insulting me... while fun... makes your statements no more accurate.

    #82 Glock36shooter, Oct 31, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  3. I get that people took living by God's laws less seriously as time passed but does that change the seriousness of those laws? Christ claimed his healing was his work. It is forbidden to work on the Sabbath. The man would still have been blind the next day. Seems Christ didn't care much for the Law. So the question is how can he fulfill ALL THE LAW even the parts that Scherbert doesn't like... if he clearly violates it whenever he sees fit?

    So are you saying God's law is an invention of man and changes with him? Or that God inspires or commands man to change his law based on God's view of where his children are in their development? Please explain.
  4. Man... you are the typical Christian. So worried about what I'm doing in my private life. Wanting to peak into my windows and judge whatever doesn't agree with your archaic mythology. Grow up.

    Well if the shoe fits...

    Sure. When I say good man I mean I think you more than likely don't kill people, or steal, or rape women, or molest children. Normal good people lie sometimes... we aren't perfect. Normal good people are hypocrites sometimes. Especially when they live in the real world... but base their beliefs in fantasy.

    Strawman much? Why don't you address how you think I'm incorrect rather than what you think of my temper.
    #84 Glock36shooter, Oct 31, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  5. I believe you graphically bragged on your sex life. No need for me to peek.

    I'm pointing out your insults and you reaffirm them.

    If it's so "normal", why use it as an insult?

    Your temper and lack of self control is so readily apparent. BTW, When I address something I think is incorrect, you only deny it or avoid it. Ex. , Atheist organizations which benefit man.
  6. So I see you have nothing to present on how I am incorrect. That's about the usual from you. What you provided in the past was vague non-specific rhetoric that neither substantiated your point of view nor countered my argument whatsoever. I've denied or avoided nothing. This is happening in the fantasy world in your head where the bible remains inerrant even though it most certainly is not.

    I gave you a list of non-religious organizations. Atheism means non-religious. The primary difference is that Atheists are just fine helping other people without trying to forward Atheism. We help for the sake of helping. Not for the sake of converting. We do that in our spare time. And I also gave you examples of where I myself personally volunteer to help others.

    Again, this fantasy world you live in sounds like a wonderful place for you... but it has nothing to do with reality.
  7. If I quote the Bible ,you say it is fictitious or you twist it.

    I believe that was someone else who provided the list, no time to look back. So, you're saying that these
    organizations are proclaiming atheism? Then why did you say atheists are not an organization? HUH?

    My "reality" involves giving financially AND serving humans in need. That IS real.
  8. I have never twisted the bible once. I take it for what it says.

    I did as well. You'll have to look back.

    That's just it... Atheism doesn't have a mission statement or agenda. No Dogma, no magic book, no leader, no messaih, no savior, no spirit guide. It is simply non-religious. And these are non-religious organizations. Atheists have no religious affiliation and neither do they. As I said, Atheists help for the sake of helping. Not in an attempt to convert. So there is no Atheistic Mission. Only non-believers looking to help.

    And that's great. But your ideology is fantasy.
  9. That's my point, out of context at very minimum.

    Good , then YOU admit these are NOT atheist organizations! That was the question, you twisted it to "non- religious". But I'll give you another chance,oh one so interested in saving mankind, try to come even close to the billions of dollars and millions(?) of hours GIVEN by Christian organizations to help those in need. If you can't, your attempt by atheists to help the hopeless is nothing but empty rhetoric.

    No agenda? Didn't you say "we" are trying to turn people away from God/ Bible? Sounds like an agenda to me.

    "Help for the sake of helping"..................hmmmmmmmmm, so in other words , you have NO documentation and I do. Christians help people in need. That's what the Bible tells us to do AND WE DO IT.
  10. Some of the "gang" needs to jump in......... he's making you look bad....................
  11. I always make sure to keep context in mind. You however dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your view of Christianity. Let me ask you... do you think jesus disobeyed the law when he saved the whore from being stoned? Of course he eliminated her accusers from her presence with the "Let he who is without sin" line.... but still... seems he prefered forgiveness over what the law demanded. How can Christ have fulfilled the law so completely when he seemed to disregard it in favor of his ideology whenever he felt like it?

    Well Atheism isn't a belief system. How much have those without a belief in God helped the world? I'd say quite a bit. But we simply don't keep track like you guys do. You guys are the ones that constantly want to pat yourselves on the back as though someone is watching. You sound like you're bragging. Is that why you give? For bragging rights?

    I would say that you really can't give Atheism any of the credit for non-religious charitable organizations since Atheism has no principles set forward that you can judge us by. But by that same token you also cannot blame the actions of people like Stalin on us for the same reason. Atheism simply has no agenda one way or the other. It's just a lack of a belief in God.

    Don't allow yourself to forget that the main reason churches spend these billions of dollars is to convert people. It's absolutely apparent that churches shovel more time and money into third world hell holes because they are more receptive to the message. If churches cared so much about their actual neighbor they'd feed every homeless man woman and child in America before trying to save the rest of the world. But your average American usually already has their mind made up about God... so churches choose to move to more "Target Rich" environments. So let's not pretend that their goal is completely and totally geared towards helping people. It's about increasing numbers, continuing the brainwashing, and increasing donations.

    Well that's my agenda. Atheism as a whole has no dogma or plan. My personal plan as a non-believer is to wake up as many as possible and dismantle religion where ever I can. So yeah... I was in error in that statement. I can't speak for all of Atheists as each of us is different. Good catch, you got me there. That's a first for you.

    Very true. We don't brag about it. We don't document it. Being overly prideful in our "goodness" is not a characteristic we share with believers. We do what we do just for the sake of doing it.

    Yes, so that you can gain more church members... which translates to more donations. One of the oldest pyramid schemes known to man. And look at the people at the top of your Christian Pyramid... How much money you think Joel Osteen has? What'cha think the net worth of Billy Graham is? Hmmm? You're just one of the suckers at the bottom making it happen for them. These men are highly educated in scripture. I bet they know it's crap... but they know they can use it to control people like you. You run in the door gladly emptying your pockets hoping God is gonna see it and show you favor.
  12. Don't like getting your tail handed to ya alone huh?
  13. What you don't get, or refuse to acknowledge because it interferes with your no true atheist charity argument, is that you're trying to compare apples to light bulbs.

    Christianity is largely built around the organizational structure of religions and churches. Atheism, as the rejection of religion, generally doesn't have that sort of infrastructure, although there are atheist organizations.

    While I was a believer I always had a church home -- an organization -- that I was associated with. That has not been the case since I rejected religion.

    I am not a member of any atheist organization, nor do I seek out atheist organizations with any sort of atheist agenda, though I do generally steer clear of religious charities that include spreading the Word as part of their charter (or mission, if you will).

    I support a number of charities on an ad hoc basis, but I also have payroll deductions setup to automatically support an organization with every paycheck.

    As pointed out, atheists do this without expecting Eternal Reward, without fearing Eternal Damnation, and without needing an ancient book to tell them that it's the right thing to do.

    To me, Christian charities come across more like a free luau, but you have to sit through the timeshare sales pitch before you get your free food.

    Certainly not with an operating budget that would compare to many Christian charities, but would Richard Dawkins Foundation is certainly an atheist charity.


    You've convinced me -- I should go make a donation.
  14. We've discussed this, Jesus fulfilled the law. I'm not required to slaughter sheep either to atone for my sins.

    Atheism is a non-belief system, I understand. Once again,you even pose the question, how much HAS the atheists donated? Documented atheists?

    "I would say that you really can't give Atheism any of the credit for non-religious charitable organizations since Atheism has no principles set forward that you can judge us by." Finally you admit it!

    But Cheristian organizations do. Organization vs. disorganization, hmmmmmm, which one logically gets more done?

    No agenda?" My personal plan as a non-believer is to wake up as many as possible and dismantle religion where ever I can. You stated earlier it was your intent to turn everyone you could away from GOD in another post. Which is it???? Sounds like an agenda to me, oh one who speaks with forked tongue.

    So if we are effective "shoveling", what are you shoveling? Do they not need help, if your message is so correct, why aren't you over there spreading your disbelief?

    So help us feed the people in the US, we do try.

    We spread the Gospel because we believe it will help them. It's apparent you atheist care primarily about yourselves (or at least you do). If that's not true,organize an Atheist Relief Fund and help the people in the NE devastated by Sandy. I guarantee there will be churches from many states feeding the hungry and helping any way they can.

    You have an agenda or you don't, you said both, which is true because the other is false.

    Yeah, we've discussed (not cussed) your "goodness".

    I'm not in agreement with Olstein's message of prosperity. Billy Grahm still lives in a cabin in NC that he's lived in for many years. Look it up.

    I try to be obedient to God in every way. I fail...............I know a ministry I'm involved with is non-profit and every dime goes to help the less fortunate. Are you now going to accuse me of stealing since I am accountable (with others) for these finances?

    Your arguments have now become impotent, checkmate.
  15. And you still have not reconciled his fulfillment of the law with his obvious disregard for it whenever he chooses. Saying he fulfilled it and proving he did are two different things. And I get you ignore God's law because you think it's been satisfied but you've yet to substantiate how. Just cause you say so... is not substantive.

    I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I don't think anyone documents Atheists.

    I don't know what it is you think you've got here but it's no more than any of us have been saying all along. Each Atheist or Agnostic is separate in and of themselves. We are not a part of a church, or group, or congregation. Each of us give to charities and volunteer our time in charitable ways based on our own principles. We have no book telling us what to think or instructing us on how to be good people. We just simply do it on our own... unlike the religious. You said it yourself... you were not a great person before you started allowing the bible to control you. Without the chains of the bible... you'd be a horrible person. I need no such chains. I'm giving and caring all on my own. Yes of course with the exception of cursing you that is. I know you're going to continue crying and moaning about that. That's my one and only crime in this world. I cursed a guy in an internet forum and he absolutely is beside himself with grief about it.

    You tell me. How many diseases would man have cured had he been waiting on God to do it? How far would our technology and knowledge of the universe have come had we waited on God to do it? How much of the goods and services that Christians muster could be transported across nations and continents without the ships, planes, and automobiles designed using sciences we wouldn't have had we been waiting for God to do it? And every single contribution to mankind from a non-believer has been done so only to help mankind... not with any reward or holy brass ring in mind to motivate them. How much have non-Christians given the world? The Greeks, The Romans in their prime? Seems there have been many non-christians that have given us the modern world we have today. Seems that through out history it has been the Christians and Muslims that have tried so hard to keep us in the mud, to keep us in darkness. Organized indeed.

    You must not have clearly read what I wrote. I admit freely that I have an agenda. And that is to turn as many away from God as possible. To wake as many people up and free them from the chains of religion as I can. And to dismantle religion as best I can. This is MY agenda. I don't think I've ever tried to hide that. Where my error was is that I cannot speak for all non-believers. Each have their own outlook and ideals. But I freely admit that was an error on my part. I don't know what it is you think you have here.

    Well to be honest I am a bit of a Nationalist. I personally feel we should help our own people first and foremost. Then do what we can to help the world. I think it's irresponsible of churches to dump millions or in fact billions of dollars into third world hell holes when we have starving Americans right here. But they are not as easy to convert so they're simply not as much of a priority.

    While I feel terribly for people overseas that are starving and in need and would love to help them as much as possible... my world view starts with my loved ones. Then my neighbor, then my community, then my city, then my state, my nation, then the world. And until our Nation is taken care of... it's pointless to go elsewhere. Spreading it everywhere in a thin fashion gets nothing done.

    I do. But not with you... my help doesn't come at a price. The people I help don't have to listen to a sales pitch about jewish zombies and talking snakes. They just get the help. And I don't need a book to force me to be a good person. I am all on my own.

    But you have nothing to show this is true. It's a little selfish don't you think. "Hey there starving dude... if you believe in my god... I'll feed ya." What are they supposed to do? Turn you down? Kinda dirty if you ask me.

    And there are non-religious groups that will help as well. Since I cannot get up there to help hands on... I shall donate money. See... and I didn't even need a magic book to force me to pretend to care. I just do all by myself. Makes me proud of myself ya know... I didn't need to fear hell to be a good person. The goodness is just IN me. Wished you knew how that felt. But you've already admitted you're not a good person without being forced to be.

    Atheism has no agenda. I do.

    Man you're self-important aren't ya? You're just never gonna stop crying and moaning about that.

    Doesn't matter if you agree with Olstein (is that how you spell it?). It's the same pyramid scheme. I didn't ask what kind of house Grahm lives in. I asked what do you think his net worth is. I bet it's at least 30mil.

    Who was the one that liked bangin hookers? You know the "I have sinned" boo hoo guy? Baker? Is that the guy. Wonder how much he had in his prime?

    Or the recent one caught with his male prostitute that he called a "Traveling Assistant" LOL. He's got some coin too.

    Yeah... you guys are awesome.

    Financially speaking I kinda respect Catholic Priests. You don't see them gathering up piles of money the way Evangelical Preachers do. But then again they traded wealth and fame for the freedom to rape children with impunity.

    How does the minister survive or pay his own bills? Does this ministry at least not take care of him/her?

    Well I'd have to see the financials before I'd make such an accusation.

    Really... so all we have to do is say checkmate and we've won huh? Well then I call it for myself like 3 days ago. You've just been beating your head against the same rock over and over again and doing nothing to substantiate any of your claims.
  16. Atheism and charity
    Concerning the issue of atheism and charity, charitable giving by atheists and agnostics in America is significantly less than by theists, according to a study by the Barna Group:

    “ The typical no-faith American donated just $200 in 2006, which is more than seven times less than the amount contributed by the prototypical active-faith adult ($1500). Even when church-based giving is subtracted from the equation, active-faith adults donated twice as many dollars last year as did atheists and agnostics. In fact, while just 7% of active-faith adults failed to contribute any personal funds in 2006, that compares with 22% among the no-faith adults.[1] ”

    A comprehensive study by Harvard University professor Robert Putnam found that religious people are more charitable than their irreligious counterparts.[2][3] The study revealed that forty percent of worship service attending Americans volunteer regularly to help the poor and elderly as opposed to 15% of Americans who never attend services.[4][5] Moreover, religious individuals are more likely than non-religious individuals to volunteer for school and youth programs (36% vs. 15%), a neighborhood or civic group (26% vs. 13%), and for health care (21% vs. 13%).[6][7]

    Arthur C. Brooks wrote in Policy Review regarding data collected in the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (SCCBS) (data collected by in 2000 by researchers at universities throughout the United States and the Roper Center for Public Opinion Research):

    “ The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.[8] ”

    ABC News reported the following:

    “ ...the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation.
    Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:

    "Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."[9]

    Given that atheistic evolutionary thinking has engendered social darwinism and given that the proponents of atheism have no rational basis for morality in their ideology, the immoral views that atheists often hold and the low per capita giving of American atheists is not unpredictable.

    Just now?
    #96 Schabesbert, Oct 31, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  17. The obstinate ones need it spelled out very plainly. So, I took a course of deliberate strategy for him to incriminate himself . I delighted in his documented contradictions. He should have learned from Musky.

    Thank you for the excellent documentation. nail in the coffin.....................
  18. Aren't you getting dizzy? all the spinning and twisting? LOL
  19. Your ignorance is showing. Jesus spoke specifically to the place of Old Testament legislation and his superior authority. When you get time, read through what He said in Matthew 5-7. Pay particular attention to chapter 6. These are not isolated statements. Jesus never subordinated his authority to any cultus, government, etc. Christians are obligated to follow Christ. Everything else and everyone else is everything and everyone else.
  20. Then atheist COULD organize to help their fellow man, is that against the atheist "non-belief system

    I applaud you for your support, I just don't understand why atheist aren't making a concerted effort. I see no reason.............

    I don't do charity work in exchange for "eternal reward , either.

    In my little church, we do not have a mandatory preachin' program for the people we help. They know we are a church,we don't beat them with the Bible, This weekend, we will be giving away winter clothes and other items donated by people in the area. We do this 3 times a year at no cost to the poor.

    If it is a charity, then what is all this talk about NOT organizing and doing things individually? You have a model (I assume) , why don't you follow it? Geesh, 36 is so altruistic and you donate......... don't you see that organization will greatly improve your help to humanity? Are you afraid a Christian may receive your help? My church does not require anything from the recipients to get our help if they are truly in need.

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