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Israeli Carry

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by stevemc, Nov 16, 2011.


  1. stevemc

    stevemc
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    I am wondering about opinions on this method. I would like to hear from people who have had "real world" experience, like cops or someone who has had to draw due to extreme circumstances. What was the timing like. Do you think it made a difference that the firearm was ready to go immediately. It is my own opinion that training to rack the slide while drawing is just as good as keeping it ready to fire all the time, with possible life saving benefits of avoiding ND by yourself or others, but I have zero experience in a situation.


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    #1 stevemc, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2011
  2. TangoFoxtrot

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    Good luck on this one. There are many schools of thought on this subject.
     

  3. RussP

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    #3 RussP, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  4. ithaca_deerslayer

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    I have no cop or gunfight experience. Fortunately, my real world hasn't involved either of those two things :rofl:

    But as to your premise, you really have to decide what is important to you.
    -- Is unchambered as fast to draw as chambered? No.
    -- Is unchambered fast enough in an emergency situation? Maybe.
    -- Is unchambered the same as carrying a paper weight? No.
    -- Is racking the slide by hand more likely to create a jam? Yes.

    With regard to accidental discharges, there are a couple ways it can go. For one, if the gun is actually unchambered then even the worst malfunction of ammunition is not going to be fatal. You could put your unchambered gun in a fire, and the popping off of ammo won't be very dangerous compared to what a chambered round can do. But carrying unchambered can have the unintended consequence of you not taking gun safety seriously, and if the round actually is chambered it could be a surprise.

    There is no right answer. You just have to weigh the pluses and minuses of each method.

    You also have to consider the platform. A Glock, in my opinion, is a good gun for unchambered carry (also good for chambered carry). The round racks into the chamber easily and reliably. There are no external safties to fumble with.

    A Kahr PM9 is a lousy gun to carry unchambered. Jamming upon racking the slide by hand is common, and even the manufacturer tells you to pull back the slide all the way, then use the slide release. The slide is also smaller to grip and harder to pull back than the Glock 26.

    A revolver is also a lousy gun to carry unchambered (I know old 6 shooters had to be carried that way). Are you going to keep the next cylinder unchambered too? Or instead, do you take something like a 642, load it up, and then just keep your darn finger away from the trigger. :)

    Finally, try racking the slide with one hand. It ain't easy. There are lots of scenarios we can think of where one of your hands will be busy, and the other hand has to draw the gun by itself.

    The conclusion isn't that chambered is better than unchambered. Instead, just be informed of the differrences, and then weigh the plusses and minuses.

    One reason I like unchambered for is around little kids. A dad rolling around on the floor rough housing with a son might prefer to carry unchambered in that situation.
     
    #4 ithaca_deerslayer, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  5. stevemc

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    Good response. Thanks. My gun is P30, and I have never even thought of a round not going in when racking. In many thousands of rounds that has not happened. I also respectfully disagree that drawing unchambered is any slower than not. With practice, I am able to rack on the way up without losing any time at all. Like you said, it's a personal choice based on personal opinion. Maybe just my experience, but It seems like there is a strong outspoken bias against carrying unchambered on this forum to the point of anger. That's why I am asking for real scenarios.

     
  6. Adjuster

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    We can have this same old discussion over and over. The most significant problem I see with Israeli is it takes two hands. I can imagine hundreds of scenarios where you need one hand for the draw and the other hand for, well, hundreds of things.
     
  7. MODOC GLOCK

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    Try drawing, racking the slide, and acquiring the target while under more stress in that moment than you have probably ever felt your entire life.

    For me...there is just too many things, fine motor skills to complete before I can defend my life.


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  8. ViennaGambit

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    Yup this is my biggest concern - I can imagine a scenario where a guy is rushing or trying to grab you and you need to fend with one hand and draw with the other...
     
  9. dosei

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    ...and every time this old discussion takes place someone brings up this same old line of BS...

    Come on people...no matter what condition you carry in you should be able to do one-hand manipulation drills. Which means you should be well aware of ways to rack the slide without using two hands. While I do not recommend one-handed racking as the primary method (for those that opt to carry chamber empty), it should be well-practiced and easily executed when needed (even by those of use that do not carry chamber empty). I carry C1, yet I am still familiar with various one-hand manipulation drills. So...since I know that it is possible to draw with one hand...and I know that it is possible to rack the slide with one hand...I thus know that it is possible to draw and rack the slide with one hand.

    So, by combining simple elements that should be learned by anyone who carries an auto-loading handgun for self-defence (one-handed draw and one-handed slide manipulation) we get this:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMsAvWOEj-k"]Condition 3 - Draw and rack with one hand - YouTube[/ame]
    No "fine motor skills" required either.
     
    #9 dosei, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  10. cowboy1964

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    Cops the world over don't use this method. If it's so great, why not?

    As far as using the belt method to rack one-handed, that won't work with many sights because they are sloped instead of squared off.

    Anyone that worried about an ND needs A) more confidence and training and B) maybe a gun with a manual safety lever

    Do the Israeli's even use Israeli Carry today? I don't know but I'd bet against it.
     
    #10 cowboy1964, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  11. dosei

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    Correction, Cops in the US do not use this method and have not for about 30-40 years (prior to that, autos were carried chamber empty). For the rest of the world, it is still the norm to carry autos chamber empty. For the majority of the last century, chamber empty carry was the norm everywhere including the US.
     
  12. ithaca_deerslayer

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    This certainly can be tested.

    Try it both ways in IDPA or some similar course setup, and compare times.

    Heck, I think drawing and shooting on target with a Glock 17 is quicker than with a Beretta 92 with the safety off. The reason is that long heavy first shot of the Beretta.

    And I also think drawing and shooting on target with the Beretta safety off is easier than doing so with the safety on.

    And I also think drawing and shooting on target with the Beretta safety on and with a round chambered is faster than with a Glock with a round unchambered.

    Those are my opinions, and based on my own testing. But you can certainly do those kinds of tests and see how it works out for you.

    The thing I like about IDPA for this sort of stuff, is it adds a little bit of stress. People watching you, waiting for the buzzer, trying to beat Joe Betterthanyou, someone else is running the clock, etc. Certainly no bullets flying back at you, but it is at least more stressful than standing in your backyard and doing the same type of moves all alone with nobody watching.
     
    #12 ithaca_deerslayer, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  13. ithaca_deerslayer

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    Something interesting I heard...

    My father-in-law was in the Korean theater of action, in the Air Force. He told me that when on guard duty in pairs, out around the parked planes, they would carry the 1911 unchambered.

    They were taught to believe they could rack the slide on the side of the holster if they needed to draw the gun. They were not trained this particular move, but were instead just told that's what they should do.

    Personally, I would think the presentation time on that kind of move compared to already having the round chambered would be quite long. And the chances of still being unchambered or jammed, after attempting to rack the slide like that would be a bit higher than I'd be comfortable with.

    Now, of course someone can do it pretty good on video and make it look smooth enough. But if you taught 50 guys to do it like that, and another 50 to start out with carrying an already chambered round, and then you timed them and took video of each performance, I bet the results would be entertaining :rofl:

    On the flip side, maybe the Air Force found that the AD rate was a lot lower by having their guards carry unchambered :)
     
    #13 ithaca_deerslayer, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  14. PAGunner

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    I can see it now, "Hold on bad guy, let me rack my slide!" :whistling:
     
  15. SpringerTGO

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    I carry condition one, but can think of lots of scenarios where condition 3 would make sense.
    First off, it takes lots of time for new shooters to become comfortable with handguns in any condition. If they feel safer with condition 3, it beats not carrying at all. In another thread there is a post about someone killing himself accidentally. People are posting all kinds of insults about poor weapons handling etc., and the guy might have been inexperienced. No need to insult him though, because all of us are new at carrying at one time or another. If he carried condition 3 he would be alive today.

    I think if you have to ask, condition 3 is probably the way to carry.
     
  16. Marc1956

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    Thank you for your input and opinion. I watched your video and see that you have, indeed, got a very quick method for drawing and racking with 1 hand. My concern is the idea of limited mobility but I carry C1 as well. Perhaps I need to practice various one hand drills as you suggest! Thanks! I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread! :embarassed:
     
  17. hamster

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    How else would the bad guy know I'm serious? I also make a cocking sound whenever my glock comes into view. :)
     
  18. PhotoFeller

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    This subject does get lots of attention, multiple threads over time, similar comments/arguments, but a clear, settled winner never emerges, in my opinion. However, I can't think of single topic in the realm of handguns that deserves greater focus. Exercising safety, however we carry, is more important than the efficiency of our draw.

    Chapters have been written on condition 1 vs Israeli and other methods. I offer only a few points from my perspective:

    1. Carrying with one in the chamber is inherently more dangerous than having an empty chamber. This is a self evident truth which can't be refuted, and it applies to every functioning firearm. By "dangerous" I mean the possibility of human error (ND) is greater. To argue that a highly trained, skilled, experienced person who practices frequently will never screw up with one in the chamber is denying the human factor.

    2. People who are highly skilled with meaningful experience are much less likely to have a firearm mishap. Condition 1 carry by those who are competent is logical and reasonable. People who are lower on the competence curve should not carry with a chambered weapon for reasons of public and personal safety. Carrying in a proper holster does not mitigate the fallibility of unskilled hands.

    3. Too much emphasis is put on condition 1 carry without appropriate attention to the competence necessary for safe performance. Most Condition 1 advocates emphasize the split-second advantage in an attack and the requirement for one-hand deployment if injured. Many here say you need to train and practice this method of carry, but no one says "don't carry chambered until you are highly accomplished in firearm handling". I think that should be a given.

    4. In my mind the method of firearm carry is simply a matter of personal choice for anyone who is very well prepared in administrative handling and execution of combat techniques. For those who lack advanced competence, keeping the chamber empty until you are really ready is the safe, sensible thing to do.
     
    #18 PhotoFeller, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  19. hamster

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    I'm all for condition 1 carry. I carry condition 1 exclusively. That being said, the video in the above link is a really poor argument IMO. A jewelry store owner is in a very different risk profile than the average CCW citizen. I'm not sure of how much sense it makes to introduce that video into this discussion.
     
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