I know lots of guys will wade through the muck with their Benelli or Wingmaster shotguns and bring ducks home for dinner.
But I'm talking about the shorter ones, the 18-inch-ish configuration ones with the purpose of using it for police work, "SHTF" or whatever, essentially using it for the purposes one would use a carbine.
While watching an episode of Rescue 911 (Bonus points if you remember when that show was on the air!) on YouTube, an officer was being shot by an offender at a distance that apparently was out of shotgun range, so after being injured he had to somehow reach for his M14 patrol rifle and fire back.
People have valid criticisms of the shotgun, including:
"It's too heavy!"
"It's too slow to reload"
"It holds too few rounds"
"Its limited in effective distance which puts me at a disadvantage"
All of those are good points. I mean, after all, an AR which holds 30 rounds (or 5 to 10 depending on how horrible your local laws are :crying: ) is lighter, quicker handling, and recoils significantly less. It can be reloaded quicker, is more accurate, especialy out to distance, and can be used in versatile conditions.
It seems to be the nail in the coffin of what would be a tactical shotgun. I mean, wouldn't cops or civilians alike want 30 rounds on tap compared to 6 or 7? Faster follow-up shots versus having to pump? Eliminating the jams associated with short stroking the action? Something easier on both the shoulder and the pocketbook (assuming we're talking buckshot and slug prices).
Surely somebody will stick up for the tactical shotgun? I voted with my money, with a top of the line 870 Police Magnum. Though 7.62x39 semi-automatic rifles that hang in the safe have many of the same positive attributes.
Despite the demerits against the shotgun, I can't help but grab it and a pocket full of buckshot and slugs when I head out into the woods.
But I see less and less people who want a shotgun and make a b-line for some kind of a carbine in its place, or keep the 12 gauge for birds or maybe a slug barrel for deer in wooded areas.
Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
So like Call of Duty you're going to press a button and out-pops-an AR/Shotgun/Pistol once you dispatch the intruder in your house, start to dial 911, and his driver starts putting rounds through your front window?
Was it shotgun for the lawn, or rifle? I don't want to scroll up.
You've got to pick one and roll with it based on where you live and how you plan to respond to different threats.
For me?
Glock 17 with a tac light... I shoot that **** at everything.
It's because they have hunted before and they know what a shotgun can do. Lots of other countries don't allow the ownership of military weapons and if they haven't served a term of conscription they usually only have experience with Chinese/Turkish/Russian shotguns that are all over the world- and have probably ruined some small game by using an improper load.
It would be extremely foolhardy to patrol with a shotgun in either urban terrain or in the great wide open because in either place you could easily be engaged outside of the shotgun's envelope.
Shotguns were fielded for breaching and non-lethal purposes... but it's more effective to breach with explosives or a hooley, and the whole "non-lethal craze" was way overblown and was mostly just a gimmick to make a few guys rich, IMO.
I carried my shotty in the turret as just-another-tool for EOF, though elaborate escalation of force schemes brief better than they work in real life. Birdshot to the windshield? Buck for whatever? Green lasers? Flash Bangs? 30-Min Chem Lights? VS-17 pieces made into little flags? Tac Lights? Air Horns? Warning shots?
I was almost always able to control the space around my truck just by moving my hand.
:dunno:
floorpoor said:
There are guys that WILL just "blaze away" because they don't practice, and don't have a clue, or just don't care about safe and responsible gun ownership.
So like Call of Duty you're going to press a button and out-pops-an AR/Shotgun/Pistol once you dispatch the intruder in your house, start to dial 911, and his driver starts putting rounds through your front window?
Was it shotgun for the lawn, or rifle? I don't want to scroll up.
You've got to pick one and roll with it based on where you live and how you plan to respond to different threats.
For me?
Glock 17 with a tac light... I shoot that **** at everything.
Oh, a call of duty reference. Now I understand your way of thinking a little more. I don't play it, but my two oldest boys do.
That would explain a lot about some of the things you say.
Like, you would use a 9mm pistol for everything. Good luck with that against a well-trained determined individual with a rifle.
A loaded shotgun is my HD gun for 2 reason 1: It has been reliable for 2000+ rounds. 2. None of my possible engagements are longer than 25 yards. Longer than that range I'd no longer be dealing with home invaders.
Oh, a call of duty reference. Now I understand your way of thinking a little more. I don't play it, but my two oldest boys do.
That would explain a lot about some of the things you say.
Like, you would use a 9mm pistol for everything. Good luck with that against a well-trained determined individual with a rifle.
You make the choice ahead of time based on the threats you expect to receive and what you plan to do about them- because you don't have time to make the choice in the moment.
You or the other guy will *need* to have lead on target right around the time you're wondering which line of defense he is standing on the threshold of, and is he going to cross it.
A loaded shotgun is my HD gun for 2 reason 1: It has been reliable for 2000+ rounds. 2. None of my possible engagements are longer than 25 yards. Longer than that range I'd no longer be dealing with home invaders.
I have something like that in my stable that I use for a travel gun. It breaks down and goes back together in seconds, fits in my luggage so I don't carry around any of those obvious gun totes, nice addition to your pistol when you are on the road.
The more "Tactical" the accoutrements on a shotgun, the more versatile it becomes. I would define versatile as having both close-range and long-range effectiveness. So, a shotgun, properly deployed, is a devastating weapon out to 15 yards with whatever ammo you use in it (factoring for cylinder or improved-cylinder choke, buck or slug). Outside of 15 yards, if the shotgun has "rifle sights" as opposed to a bead, and you are using slugs, it has extended-range accuracy and lethality far exceeding that of a handgun. So, a shotgun gives you more lethality and accuracy within the same general ranges you would engage a threat with a handgun. Outside of those ranges, a rifle with optics is a superior tool (if you can't identify the threat, why would you shoot it?). The right tool for the right job.
If I can only carry one long gun, though (backed-up by my handgun), it's going to be a Shotgun with both slug and buck ammo. Living where I live, and doing my job, the shotgun is the best tool for the threats I'm likely to face.
i know people who think its the untimate weapon for all situations. Its not. Anyone who says you can use slugs for long range to make it like a rifle, doesn't shoot slugs much. A shotgun rules for home defense or close quarters but if i could only have one gun, it would be a carbine hands down
AK really made a great post about context. As always, for a specific purpose, there is a specific gun. In combat (i.e.: REAL tactical use) can't imagine a shotgun beating a rifle. At best, you will moving from indoors to outdoors. You had better have ~200yd capability (or more).
For HD - I'm not shooting more than 50 feet - EVEN if moving outdoors.
As for the lethality of the AR; As always - it's a gopher bullet, it works as well as a .22lr or .50 Beowulf when it lands on target. If it is off target, well....maybe not. Yes, the original AR was rifled properly and shot by guys who could shoot. And didn't spray and pray.
As we see mentioned, everything worth shooting at a bad guy over penetrates. Never forget that. Box O truth is awesome.
And as always - whatever you shoot best is what is best to shoot.
If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area that’s urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if there’s ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoever’s coming in is not going. You don’t need a shotgun. It’s harder to load; it’s harder to pump. And in fact, you don’t need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
With Seller & Bellot 12g 00 buck you get 12 .33 cal, 54gr, lead balls going about 1100fps with each pull of the trigger.
My folding Mossy 500 will hold 6 in the mag tube. 12 x 6 = 72.
That's 72 bullets with only 6 pulls of the trigger.
At 30 feet i get about a 10 inch group with one round.
I can switch to slugs or "blinding" bird shot at a moments notice... or i can alternate different ammo from the side-saddle or other ammo source without having to remove a magazine.
Now put yourself in a sudden "civil unrest" violent riot situation in the middle of the city with mobs of people violently blocking a intersection that you just found yourself and your family inadvertently trapped in like Reginald Denny. The mob is bent on pulling all of you out of your vehicle and then beating you, robbing you, beating your wife and kids and gang raping your wife and daughters.
If i can't simply hit the zombies with my vehicle and get out of the area, i'll use my 10mm 20 rnd Glock pistol out the window first, then the shotgun, then the carbine as backup and for any more precise work that needs to be done.
Your immediate need is to get out of there and get your family and self to a safe place that you can defend. Your immediate need is not to go toe to toe with the mob in their own neighborhood and try to save the world.
Remington 870 Express youth model. Hunt on Sunday, kick doors on Monday. Cheap, accessable, dependable, effective. There are other choices, but this is all you need (not getting into gauge choices!).
I am the weapon, the gun is my tool.
"Tactical" don't mean much. Sorry if I have offended any of you 'high speed low drag' operators.
That police magnum should serve you well.
Olde School For repelling boarders up close and personal in confined spaces I like a shotgun.
Nothing fancy or technical mind you just a 12 ga. with 00 Buck.
His name is "Claymore".........[/QUOTE said:
Priceless Olde School. Wish I had thought of that one!
Mine is "Tunnels".
I never meant to imply arming a complete infantry squad with Mossbergs and hundred round bandoleers then sending them into say the urban combat our boys are facing with the sand terrorists.
I am aware of the long distance heavy incoming that arrives on station in a modern firefight, and know even the best shotgun with crates of ammo on hand wouldn't end nicely.
That said, I just wanted some stories from the Nam, WWII, or Korea/WWI where a alley cleaner showed it mettle.
When armies had bolt rifles, and police had revolvers, the tactical shotgun had more of a distinct advantage than it has now. The one thing where shotguns have the advantage is in stopping power for one shot. It's hard to argue that there is anything more devastating than a 1, or 1 1/4 oz slug, or 00B at close range. Nothing (within reason) is going to have the same effect without follow-up shots.
The answer: No, tactical shotguns aren't obsolete......but, all the other options make smaller the distinctions they once had......
I too prefer my para SKS and my AK if things are breaking bad. But for my narrow hallway that points straight at my front door that has someone else's front door and bedroom right across the street....I like 'ol Tunnels and double load of OO buck.
B.)If it wasn't, he probably didn't use it for much other than breaching. Thats pretty much what the .mil uses shotguns for. IIRC, we have a SGM here who works at the Army shotgun training school.
Multiple Army shotgun quals here as well, however we carried them on a daily basis at a busy border crossing. They are effective "riot" guns when faced en-masse, and out-numbered, by albeit, poorly armed groups. No non-lethal shells, but that stupid, dangerous adage about racking the slide as a warning, unfortunately has merit.:shocked:
*Mossberg 500A, 5 shot magazine, fed with good ol' Army green hull 00 Buck.
That's the thing about public perception... they see you with a shotgun they figure you basically can't miss so they are going to get shot... and so they tend to shy away.
As many others have pointed out- you just won't see a shotgun in professional application for anything other than breaching or non-lethal use.
That's a fact, jack.
All the limpstroking in the world over "grandpa's scattergun" or "devastating superiority" is not going to overcome the limitations of the platform.
If an 18-series-dude carried an "FN 12 ga" (which would be odd) then I'd say he's quite lucky he didn't find himself in a situation that exceeded the capabilities of his chosen weapon.
13 series here. The only cannon I ever fired downrange was a Mossberg.:dunno:
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