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Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?

38K views 235 replies 113 participants last post by  CV67Chris 
#1 ·
I know lots of guys will wade through the muck with their Benelli or Wingmaster shotguns and bring ducks home for dinner.

But I'm talking about the shorter ones, the 18-inch-ish configuration ones with the purpose of using it for police work, "SHTF" or whatever, essentially using it for the purposes one would use a carbine.

While watching an episode of Rescue 911 (Bonus points if you remember when that show was on the air!) on YouTube, an officer was being shot by an offender at a distance that apparently was out of shotgun range, so after being injured he had to somehow reach for his M14 patrol rifle and fire back.

People have valid criticisms of the shotgun, including:
"It's too heavy!"
"It's too slow to reload"
"It holds too few rounds"
"Its limited in effective distance which puts me at a disadvantage"

All of those are good points. I mean, after all, an AR which holds 30 rounds (or 5 to 10 depending on how horrible your local laws are :crying: ) is lighter, quicker handling, and recoils significantly less. It can be reloaded quicker, is more accurate, especialy out to distance, and can be used in versatile conditions.

It seems to be the nail in the coffin of what would be a tactical shotgun. I mean, wouldn't cops or civilians alike want 30 rounds on tap compared to 6 or 7? Faster follow-up shots versus having to pump? Eliminating the jams associated with short stroking the action? Something easier on both the shoulder and the pocketbook (assuming we're talking buckshot and slug prices).

Surely somebody will stick up for the tactical shotgun? I voted with my money, with a top of the line 870 Police Magnum. Though 7.62x39 semi-automatic rifles that hang in the safe have many of the same positive attributes.

Despite the demerits against the shotgun, I can't help but grab it and a pocket full of buckshot and slugs when I head out into the woods.

But I see less and less people who want a shotgun and make a b-line for some kind of a carbine in its place, or keep the 12 gauge for birds or maybe a slug barrel for deer in wooded areas.

Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
 
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#78 ·
If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area that’s urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if there’s ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoever’s coming in is not going. You don’t need a shotgun. It’s harder to load; it’s harder to pump. And in fact, you don’t need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
Lol. You sound like Uncle Joe Stalin and only a little bit like the Dope from Delaware.
 
#79 · (Edited)
You are talking abut two different types of weapons. The shotgun is a defensive weapon. The AR is an assault type weapon. Yes I know it isn't full auto or burst fire, that is the only difference between the M16.

The 5.56 was designed to hurt people not kill them. The idea was that it takes more troops to take care of a wounded man than it did a dead one. The wounded man is taken out of the fight and he has to be taken care of.

If it was about killing troops they would have stayed with the 308. All so you get to carry more ammo because of its light weight.

On a side note. Some in the know claim that because of the AR and its spray and pray manner that is the reason in the Vietnam war we used five times the ammo to kill a man as was used in World War 2. Did they have better rifle men then or better rifles. I would say they had better rifles. I know they had more power.

The shotgun takes its birth back to the days of the blunder bust. It was effective then and it still is.

At 20' down the hall from a bad guy you cut loose with a 12 gage number 4 buck out of a short cylinder bore barreled shot gun the bad guy is going to have a very bad day. At that point the pattern is about 2' the hallway is 4' or less. With two shots you have hit the bad guy many times.

With the AR you pull the trigger twice and you may get two hits. If not then you have two bullets running at around 3000 fps running a muck.

The shotgun is a great weapon. It works well in the home and around the house. The AR is what it was built to be and under powered rifle with to light of a bullet to do any thing well.

Don't get me wrong I like shooting the 5.56 it is good fun. If I need a rifle I want one that has stopping power like the 308 or 358, not a mouse gun.

Yes I know the 5.56 can on one hand go through any thing then on the next hand it can't go through drywall it is safer than a shotgun. The fan boy stuff a lot of you come up with over the AR is just bull.

Why do you think so many people are wild catting calibers for the AR? They are looking for a round that makes it a better killing rife.
 
#80 ·
There is no panacea. My home defense guns are handguns because I live in a town and want to have them on me if I need them. I keep a rifle in the safe with a couple of loaded magazines in case something happens up town or in the neighborhood and I feel I can make a positive impact without endangering anyone. A shotgun does nothing for me. I can't carry it in my cargo pocket like my G26 or on my belt under a shirt or jacket, but anything outside the range of a handgun is also outside the range of a shotgun with buckshot since I can't keep the pattern on the target. Some pellets are going to go stray from a load or OO or OOO if someone is 30+ yards away. I shoot my G26 or 1911 well enough that at that range I feel I am unlikely to miss a stationary man sized target with either.

If I lived in the country where the neighbors were a quarter mile away the long gun would be a shotgun. Either a 12 gauge pump like an 870 or 500 or a hammerless coach gun. (Right now I am shotgunless except for a 16ga single shot and a family heirloom quail gun.)

I don't drive my wife's car in a foot of snow and I don't drive my Jeep on vacation road trips of a couple of hundred miles either; seems kind of common sensical to use common sense in picking one's tools rather than an emotional attachment or aversion.
 
#81 ·
You are talking abut two different types of weapons. The shotgun is a defensive weapon. The AR is an assault type weapon. Yes I know it isn't full auto or burst fire, that is the only difference between the M16.

The 5.56 was designed to hurt people not kill them. The idea was that it takes more troops to take care of a wounded man than it did a dead one. The wounded man is taken out of the fight and he has to be taken care of.

If it was about killing troops they would have stayed with the 308. All so you get to carry more ammo because of its light weight.

On a side note. Some in the know claim that because of the AR and its spray and pray manner that is the reason in the Vietnam war we used five times the ammo to kill a man as was used in World War 2. Did they have better rifle men then or better rifles. I would say they had better rifles. I know they had more power.

The shotgun takes its birth back to the days of the blunder bust. It was effective then and it still is.

At 20' down the hall from a bad guy you cut loose with a 12 gage number 4 buck out of a short cylinder bore barreled shot gun the bad guy is going to have a very bad day. At that point the pattern is about 2' the hallway is 4' or less. With two shots you have hit the bad guy many times.

With the AR you pull the trigger twice and you may get two hits. If not then you have two bullets running at around 3000 fps running a muck.

The shotgun is a great weapon. It works well in the home and around the house. The AR is what it was built to be and under powered rifle with to light of a bullet to do any thing well.

Don't get me wrong I like shooting the 5.56 it is good fun. If I need a rifle I want one that has stopping power like the 308 or 358, not a mouse gun.

Yes I know the 5.56 can on one hand go through any thing then on the next hand it can't go through drywall it is safer than a shotgun. The fan boy stuff a lot of you come up with over the AR is just bull.

Why do you think so many people are wild catting calibers for the AR? They are looking for a round that makes it a better killing rife.
Excellent post. Truly excellent!
 
#88 ·
If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area that’s urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if there’s ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoever’s coming in is not going. You don’t need a shotgun. It’s harder to load; it’s harder to pump. And in fact, you don’t need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
It's like you took Biden's shotgun comment and ran it through an urban thug translator. This is why the Democrat overlords in big cities push gun control so much - they hear crap like this from their constituents all the time.
 
#89 ·
If you want to protect yourself, get an SBR'd AK. Have the banana clips for a 7.62 AK, and I promise you as I told my girlfriend, we live in an area that’s urban and metro accessible. I said, honey if there’s ever problem, just walk out on the rooftop, walk out, put that AK and fire one mag dump outside the condo. I promise you whoever’s coming in is not going. You don’t need a shotgun. It’s harder to load; it’s harder to pump. And in fact, you don’t need 00 Buck to protect yourself. Buy an AK. Buy an AK.
I have a Saiga 12, is that OK? It's not a pump and is mag/drum fed, you know, kinda like an AK.:dunno:
 
#90 ·
You are talking abut two different types of weapons. The shotgun is a defensive weapon. The AR is an assault type weapon. Yes I know it isn't full auto or burst fire, that is the only difference between the M16.

The 5.56 was designed to hurt people not kill them. The idea was that it takes more troops to take care of a wounded man than it did a dead one. The wounded man is taken out of the fight and he has to be taken care of.

If it was about killing troops they would have stayed with the 308. All so you get to carry more ammo because of its light weight.

On a side note. Some in the know claim that because of the AR and its spray and pray manner that is the reason in the Vietnam war we used five times the ammo to kill a man as was used in World War 2. Did they have better rifle men then or better rifles. I would say they had better rifles. I know they had more power.

The shotgun takes its birth back to the days of the blunder bust. It was effective then and it still is.

At 20' down the hall from a bad guy you cut loose with a 12 gage number 4 buck out of a short cylinder bore barreled shot gun the bad guy is going to have a very bad day. At that point the pattern is about 2' the hallway is 4' or less. With two shots you have hit the bad guy many times.

With the AR you pull the trigger twice and you may get two hits. If not then you have two bullets running at around 3000 fps running a muck.

The shotgun is a great weapon. It works well in the home and around the house. The AR is what it was built to be and under powered rifle with to light of a bullet to do any thing well.

Don't get me wrong I like shooting the 5.56 it is good fun. If I need a rifle I want one that has stopping power like the 308 or 358, not a mouse gun.

Yes I know the 5.56 can on one hand go through any thing then on the next hand it can't go through drywall it is safer than a shotgun. The fan boy stuff a lot of you come up with over the AR is just bull.

Why do you think so many people are wild catting calibers for the AR? They are looking for a round that makes it a better killing rife.
:rofl:


You win ignorant post of the day. Congrats on unseating both Peace Warrior and NorthCarolinaLiberty.
 
#91 ·
The issue I think we're getting into here, is the key word "tactical" in "tactical shotgun".


When guys like Kev, Murphy, myself, AirbornInfantry, etc talk about "tactical" we're generally talking about people who use the gun with the intent to kill someone. NOT guys hiding in the bedroom with a shotgun trained on the door waiting for the police to show up.

From this, I will also exclude, the non SWAT/CERT/whatever police use, as their use of a firearm, is also largely defensive, much like that of a civilian.

In the .mil/tactical useage, the shotgun has become the tertiary choice for the majority of users. Behind both the rifle, and the pistol.

There are some niche roles where it is still a front line choice, but it truly has become a niche weapon because it has some significant limitations, and what few advantages it does offer, are not enough to offset its drawbacks.

From a tactical standpoint, again, taking the weapon and going out looking for trouble, it has

A.) Very limited ammo capacity
B.) Very limited scope of engagement
C.) Longer reload time
D.) Possibility of having to perform a Select a XXX drill if you find yourself outside the engagement envelope of the round you have chambered/in the tube
E.) Relegated to headshot/hipshots against armored opponents
F.) Doesn't share ammo commonality with other team members
G.) Its lack of precision can make shots on partial obscured targets either impossible, or potentially harmful to captives/bystanders/others.


Its advantages

A.) Versatility in ammo choices/selection
B.) Ability to fire LL gives you a escalation of force not provide by most other platforms

In the end, you can argue till you're blue in the face if you don't agree with the facts I've posted, but the proof really is in the numbers. "Tactical Shotguns" are, in ever increasing numbers being relegated to the roles of LL employment, and Breaching duty. Aside from those roles, and some some niche duty, with units like boarding duties and, and prisoner control and similar, you just don't see them anymore.

With the new 40mm/37mm launchers, we're even seeing a move away from the shotgun in the LL platform, and dynamic entry/explosive entry is rapidly derringer those markets as well.

Also, you have to look no further than the Hollywood shoot out, to see why "Tactical Shotguns" are being replaced.
---------------------------------------------------------
Now on the civilian side/non "tactical" LEO/home defense etc

Its doing very well, and will never be replaced. Many people rely upon their shotguns to do "dual" duty of putting food on the table, and defending their homes from intruders/pets.

And in that role, its versatility is unmatched. And furthermore the majority of its downsides are dependent upon situations that are not realistically common enough to warrant replacement as a self defense weapon.

Low capacity, isn't such an issue when you're not going out looking for a fight.

Being that most users are not likely to leave the house with the weapon, they are unlikely to suddenly find themselves outside the range/envelope of the capability of their weapon.

Since most home invaders, in non drug related break ins, are not wearing body armor, its limitations against a armored opponent are not a realistic drawback.

Chances of having to make a shot around a hostage, for your average home owner, are slim, so its lack of precision is less of an issue, though it does bring into question what happens if/when you miss.

And its large ammo selection capability make it a good choice in a rural setting, as its capable of dealing with almost any pest you're likely to encounter from rats/racoons/badgers with bird shot, to animals like polar and brown bears with slugs.




I think alot of the arguing/bickering has been because people have been reading it as "are shotguns out dated" and then jumping in to see guys like Kev saying, yep, they're being replaced/relegated to niche duty, and getting fired up, before they understand just what he's saying.
 
#92 ·
I've moved mine out of the bedroom closet into the safe. An AR sits there now. I'm unwilling as I have aged to take it out and practice with it. If I'm not going to practice with it then its out of the line up. I will say this, for the money, you can't beat a good pump shotgun for home defense and the much more expensive AR is not that much better. If I did not have an AR for other reasons and were younger I don't think its worth the money to upgrade.
 
#94 ·
The issue I think we're getting into here, is the key word "tactical" in "tactical shotgun".


When guys like Kev, Murphy, myself, AirbornInfantry, etc talk about "tactical" we're generally talking about people who use the gun with the intent to kill someone. NOT guys hiding in the bedroom with a shotgun trained on the door waiting for the police to show up.

From this, I will also exclude, the non SWAT/CERT/whatever police use, as their use of a firearm, is also largely defensive, much like that of a civilian.

In the .mil/tactical useage, the shotgun has become the tertiary choice for the majority of users. Behind both the rifle, and the pistol.

There are some niche roles where it is still a front line choice, but it truly has become a niche weapon because it has some significant limitations, and what few advantages it does offer, are not enough to offset its drawbacks.

From a tactical standpoint, again, taking the weapon and going out looking for trouble, it has

A.) Very limited ammo capacity
B.) Very limited scope of engagement
C.) Longer reload time
D.) Possibility of having to perform a Select a XXX drill if you find yourself outside the engagement envelope of the round you have chambered/in the tube
E.) Relegated to headshot/hipshots against armored opponents
F.) Doesn't share ammo commonality with other team members
G.) Its lack of precision can make shots on partial obscured targets either impossible, or potentially harmful to captives/bystanders/others.


Its advantages

A.) Versatility in ammo choices/selection
B.) Ability to fire LL gives you a escalation of force not provide by most other platforms

In the end, you can argue till you're blue in the face if you don't agree with the facts I've posted, but the proof really is in the numbers. "Tactical Shotguns" are, in ever increasing numbers being relegated to the roles of LL employment, and Breaching duty. Aside from those roles, and some some niche duty, with units like boarding duties and, and prisoner control and similar, you just don't see them anymore.

With the new 40mm/37mm launchers, we're even seeing a move away from the shotgun in the LL platform, and dynamic entry/explosive entry is rapidly derringer those markets as well.

Also, you have to look no further than the Hollywood shoot out, to see why "Tactical Shotguns" are being replaced.
---------------------------------------------------------
THIS is the best post of the thread.

Now on the civilian side/non "tactical" LEO/home defense etc

Its doing very well, and will never be replaced. Many people rely upon their shotguns to do "dual" duty of putting food on the table, and defending their homes from intruders/pets.
I agree that it's still probably the best defense against pets. :supergrin:
 
#97 ·
Much what Stick said.

We're all talking about two different categories here.

And the boy genius who said 5.56 was intended to wound......yeah, because the Army studies about increased hit potential and severely increased lethality with the 5.56 were all about wounding.....
 
#98 ·
Much what Stick said.

We're all talking about two different categories here.

And the boy genius who said 5.56 was intended to wound......yeah, because the Army studies about increased hit potential and severely increased lethality with the 5.56 were all about wounding.....
If you look at the history of the round you will find that after General LeMay shot the famous watermelon, thus proving the rifle and caliber's suitability for Air Force security personnel, the weapon was picked up by Special forces, and soon the Army s a whole to be used in jungle conditions, on full auto, to increase HIT PROBABILITY. Since then many attempts have been made to put some ballistic lipstick on the round but it is still what it is.

More importantly to the discussion at hand is the fact that most of us are aware that there is no "perfect solution" nor is there a "perfect weapon, caliber or gauge" Circumstances vary as do individuals, there can be no doubt about the fairly impressive record the shotgun has racked up, to say it is not a viable, or effective choice and that it has been rendered obsolete seems well, disingenuous.
 
#99 ·
The Army conducted a study, the result of which was development of the 5.56mm, and downsizing the AR-10 (in 7.62 Nato) to the 5.56 to meet the requirement.

LeMay may have adopted it first, but the ARMY specifically asked for a small caliber, lightweight recoil weapon with increased lethality.

It was never designed to wound, the early Special Forces reports praised it's incredible lethality in the early twist barrels with guys who actually knew how to make hits, not just throw mags off on auto.
 
#100 ·
I keep loaded hanguns around the house. I keep AR's in the safe. The only long gun I keep ready to go is a 870 with OO buck.

If someone broke in and stole something It would be cheaper and easyer to replace a used 870 than a Colt 6920.

Name any other gun that can be used to shoot anything from flying birds to large game or SD with only a change in ammo.

I have never seen anyone shot clays with a AR but I have seen people shoot at 200 yards with slugs. Last summer I was shooting slugs at 80 yards and every round was in center mass.
 
#101 ·
The Army conducted a study, the result of which was development of the 5.56mm, and downsizing the AR-10 (in 7.62 Nato) to the 5.56 to meet the requirement.

LeMay may have adopted it first, but the ARMY specifically asked for a small caliber, lightweight recoil weapon with increased lethality.

It was never designed to wound, the early Special Forces reports praised it's incredible lethality in the early twist barrels with guys who actually knew how to make hits, not just throw mags off on auto.
You dispelled one rumor and may have referenced another (the "Meat Axe").

It's the speed that kills on SCHV rounds. That's the source of their incredible lethality... and it is incredible.

Just think about how many scrawny third worlders can lift up their shirts and show off in-and-out entry and exit wounds left from .30 cal AK rounds...

"Dees is number one. Dees is de one from when I was 23. Dees is from my cousin when I was 26..."

When the 5.45 showed up in Afghanistan the locals thought it was a poison bullet because everyone who got shot with SCHV actually died- rather than just sit out the rest of the fighting season if it wasn't a CNS or major organ hit.

I too believed that the "barely stabilized" bullets yawed earlier in the target and created greater tissue damage and more devastating wound channels until I read what DocGKR had to say on the subject.
 
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