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Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by Fire_Medic, Oct 10, 2012.
A most excellent job at stirring the pot, you are doing.
Bonus points for ad hominem.
Yes...the "problem" with the M&P is with the full size 9mms.
Apparently, the barrel gives accuracy issues but it is not with each pistol and only affects some. If you never shoot your M&P past say 10 yards...you might not ever notice.
This...along with the "warts" of every polymer pistol (...and they all have them) is available with 5 minutes of searching around.
Pick the polymer 9mm that you can live with and deal with it's quirks/shortfalls/problems. Currently, there is no polymer 9mm that is totally perfect in every way.
That spot USED to be occupied by the Glock 17/19 but as we all know that is not the case anymore.
Glock was doing too much better than everyone else. Cutting some corners could save money and still keep Glock in line with the competition.
That's the corporate philosophy now. Success isn't quality and reputation, success is cutting costs and increasing production capabilities.
Glock might never admit this but this whole erratic ejection issue HAS done huge damage to their reputation.
For quite a long time, you KNEW that you could buy a Glock 19 or 17 and take it right out of the box and the damn thing would just flat out run. No questions about it....eat everything you tossed it it and run if you lubed it or not and run when it was horribly filthy.
The 2nd and early 3rd gen G17 and G19 basically BUILT Glock's reputation.
Then they started messing with the recoil spring set up (which was running fine in the early 3rd gen guns) and then came the MIM extractors. That was their downfall.
I am not even sure if Glock is actually admitting to the problem or just quietly trying to fix it and move on. How much could this crappy MIM extractor REALLY saved them? When you factor in the loss of their reputation....was it worth it?
Glock's only saving grace is that most of the other polymer pistols have their own warts or other features that detract from their appeal at the same time.
The HK polymer guns seem to run very well but they are not striker fired and the P30 runs almost double what a G17 costs. Mags are also more expensive for HK polymer guns.
The XD is hard to get parts for and has a long and funky trigger re-set. Some also are not keen on the fact that the grip safety also locks the slide shut.
The M&P full size 9mm has it's accuracy problems as well as the funky trigger with no re-set. You will need to blow 100bucks with Apex to get a decent trigger in a M&P9 full-size gun.
The PPQ looks interesting but it is still fairly new and unproven. It's mags are pricier than HK mags and not always easy to find. Also, hostlers, sights and accessories are not out in abundance with the PPQ...yet.
So yeah...there is no clear cut "winner" in the polymer 9mm sector at all if you ask me. This spot USED to be taken by the Glock 17/19.
If S&W had put a decent trigger in the M&P and it was accurate...we'd probably not be talking about any of this garbage in detail and be shooting M&Ps but again...this is not the case.
Someone WILL win the polymer striker fired 9mm game and put out a pistol that is a winner. Don't think it cannot be done because....hello!...that is the spot that Glock used to occupy.
Until then....I don't know what to tell you to do.
If the newer Apex extractor does not cure my G19....I might just suck it up and buy a PPQ or P30 and call it good. You just can't play with the problematic Glocks forever, you know. With all the time and money spent on a faulty G19 or G17....you could have bought a P30! LOL
I tried to like the P30, but can't get used to the DA/SA and the LEM reset on them is looooong, and I have too much trigger time behind a Glock.
I ran my then new to me P30's through a 3 days class and they ran fine and very accurate, but it's not just about accuracy, it's about accurately being fast, and I just was much slower with the P30 LEM than I am with my Glocks or M&P's.
In my case, I will just keep carrying my 45 M&P mid size and using the G19 as a range toy until the new parts combo has had enough rounds down range without issue to make me happy. Being that my gun did not start exhibiting issues until almost 2K rounds, I'm very skeptical about calling it good with just a few hundred rounds down range right now with the new non dipped extractor and white sound defense HRED.
That is also a huge part of the problem. Many Glocks do not start tossing brass at your head UNTIL they have around 1000 rounds through them. That is why sooo many Glock shooters here say, "hey....I don't know what you all are whining about."
Most Glock buyers buy these guns and maybe put 2 boxes through the thing and put in under their bed or in a drawer and call it good. Then, they take it to the deer camp once a year and put another 100rds through it and think it is wonderful. Many of them will NEVER see this problem crop up....period.
My own 3rd gen G19 did not start doing it until about 800rds or so. Before that...yeah...I was like, "whats the problem" myself! LOL
Yes, the cost is not the only off-putting factor in the P30...some don't like the d/a s/a trigger or the expensive mags. Again...ALL polymer 9mms have their warts.
I am hoping that the Apex part fixes my G19 if not...I will have to get rid of it and move on. Don't want to do that but what other choice do we have?
Glock's whole way of addressing this problem was VERY off-putting.
Yeah I know, they sent me "new" parts, and they were the same ones in my gun, lol. My "temporary" fix, is holding up well, but as I have said, it will take a lot more rounds for me to trust it and see if it continues to operate as it should.
If I was going to recommend a new pistol today to a new shooter, it would not be a 9mm.........
It has been entertained, but that would not explain the exact same issues if not worse on some late gen 3's(recoil spring did not change), like in my case.
My gen 3 was one of the most frustrating, unreliable guns guns I have EVER owned. BTF was just icing on the cake.
My new gen 4 has been the polar opposite. Its more like my gen 2. I would still call the ejection somewhat erratic, but I can live with that. Its never malfunctioned, stovepiped, and it doesn't throw brass left or back every single mag.
Just contacted Glock and asked about the dipped 9mm extractors they sent my armorer. The tech said they don't hand pick but just grab whatever is in the batch. Per my request he is sending my armorer a 40cal extractor for my 19. He felt that it was unorthodox but would send it anyway. That's what I call service. Apparently all these 19s need a custom fix and not a one size fit all.
I remember there was a time when I used to go to the range and just have fun shooting my guns.
How can the erratic ejection be caused by the dual spring set up.....if you have a GEN 3 GLOCK?
Wasn't the other thread eventually closed down because the impolite cretins kept blabbering on about how THEY were having no problems and thought we were stupid for posting about our issues?
How hard is it to stay out of threads that do not apply to you or your situation? I don't own a 10mm Glock so I damn sure stay out of those threads. Why go there and comment on how silly you think it is to own a 10mm or how high the ammo is?
That is half the problem with Glock Talk....too many people here with no manners or sense of how to be civil and polite. No wonder most of the civilized, sane and well meaning people have long left this place for forums where that kind of nonsense is not tolerated.
One of the current solutions to the Glock problems is to stop spending tons of money on replacement parts, ammo to test "fixed" guns, and so on is to replace it with a gun such as the M&P 9c that does work. Another is to get an older Glock. Another gun besides the M&P like the PPQ. Or try the APEX extractor.
Those are all real solutions that I and others have done to fix the problem since Glock either doesn't know how or won't spend the money on. So it is a real solution to the problem. If Glock ever does really get the problem fixed. And I'm not sure how many rounds you will have to fire to be sure it's fixed. Since it can go anywhere from day one or past 2000 rounds before problems occur. So if their is one solution I will wait until I'm not seeing problem guns at my range with the frequency I still am. Until then I'll keep my older Glocks that still work and other guns that are trouble free.
Anyone still using the 40S&W extractor with success?
My new G19 Gen4 has the problem. The HRED and Lonewolf 9mm extractor werent enough to do the job, (all other internals updated) so I was looking at the 40 extractor ($15) as opposed to the $60 Apex stuff.
FDE G19 gen3 test fired 09/12, 600 rounds (150 remington UMC 115g , 450 lawman 124gr) 1 failure to extract, 1 stovepipe, 3 brass to face, countless on my right shoulder, dipped extractor, 336 ejector. I'm probably going to sell or trade-in, i regret selling my G19 made in 08. I can deal with brass hitting my shoulder and the occasional face tap. Its the failure to extract and stovepipe that are eating me up. I will make my decision after 1000 round mark, heading to the range with 200rd's of winchester ranger 127+p+ and 200rd's of 124gr american eagle
I just picked up an old stock NIB G17 Gen 4s from a local shop on Sunday as my first handgun. I had read about the ejection issues when researching prior to purchasing but unfortunately never came across the specific part numbers or test fire dates to check for. Test fire date was 9/12/2011 and it looks like I've got the 336 ejector and 042 recoil spring.
After successfully reining in my urge to spend $900 for the P30 v3, I was debating whether to go for the Gen 3 for a good 5-10 minutes given the issues I had read about but the ergonomics seemed a lot better for me on the Gen 4 and the sales guys said not to worry about the issues as they were all fixed.
I ran 100 rounds of Federal 115 grain through it on Sunday and had 3 FTFs, 5 FTEs, and ~ 1 in 4 casings smacking me in the forehead w/ none of the ejections any more to the side than say 5 o'clock. I shot 200 rounds of Winchester 115 grain Monday night and I had 2 FTFs, at least one FTE per clip (usually on the 2nd or 3rd shot of a fully loaded mag), and I lost count of the casings bouncing off of my glasses, forehead and face. At least I'm gaining confidence in dealing w/ misfeeds/jams The casings show the same kind of scoring/scuffing on the sides as pictured earlier in this thread.
I talked to the gunsmith types at the shop/range and they keep saying limp wristing is the cause of the issue. I could buy this being the case seeing as I have next to no idea what I'm doing techinque wise at this point if not for the fact that I put 500 rounds total through relatively beat up P30 LEM, G17 Gen 3, XDM, USP 9, and USP .40 rentals over the course of the weekend trying to decide what I wanted to purchase and never had one failure or casing hit me.
Planning to call Glock this afternoon and go through my issues. I'd like to try to keep this pistol OEM if possible but the seeming randomness of what's worked for some pistols not working for others is kind of discouraging. I hope I can at least get it to feed and clear spent casings reliably w/o out more cash out of pocket and replacing half the internals w/ aftermarket parts or I'm going to be kicking myself for not ponying up the extra cash for the P30 (or trying harder to find a PPQ to shoot before I made the decision)...
Given what I've experienced do you guys think I should push for the 30274 ejector and the newest undipped extractor or .40 LCI extractor (not sure on the part numbers of these)? Any other bits I would need in conjunction w/ this?
I am curious if anyone else finds it absurd that a supposed quality firearm has this many pages of post on how to fix something that should not even happen coming out of the factory.
Is Glock doing any testing on what they are putting on the market, or do they realize that there are customers willing to accept anything?
I know they are good pistols, I have many.
But this is beyond bizaar.
The extractor spring needs to be replaced when you experence problems
It's not a new phenomena, really. The 30SF and 36 have been known to be problematic for a lot of people for a long time and Glock is either unwilling or unable to fix them.
To be honest, if the new coming Apex 3rd gen extractor does not cure my G19...I am seriously considering dumping Glock and going to the PPQ.
This thing is getting rave reviews from very noteable people. It is accurate, reliable, well made and has a great trigger. It also does not toss brass at your noggin.
Since Glock and the M&P are having their troubles....someone is going to bring out a workable polymer striker 9mm that runs right out of the box. That might as well be the PPQ. It is a spot that was occupied by the Glock 19/17 for many years.