If you can't kill it with a 9mm, you need a rifle

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Andy W, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. nicovg

    Hi guys, it is not about caliber. Of course the size of the hole matters. What matters more is the first rule in any gunfight: have a gun! I have a Ruger Super Redhawk in 44Mag. Will surely make a mess of any attacker, but it resides in my safe, it is too big to carry. My Glock 19 sits on the hip, sleeps under my pillow. Which means I have a gun!
    I have experience of what a 9mm can do in the hands of a skilled person. Use what you are comfortable with, the rest is bull****.
    Any gun, more than an armslength away when the sh... hits he fan, is of no use, no matter the size the of the bullet.

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
  2. Zombie Steve

    Zombie Steve Decap Pin Killa


    I ain't LE or military, but I have drawn a gun with the expectation of shooting someone in self defense. Believe me, when you're there, you always wish you had more gun. I almost exclusively carry .45 auto, by the way...

    Well, if it's under the pillow when you're sleeping, you ain't exactly carrying it, are you? I understand the Redhawk won't be as comfortable to rest your head on, but you might consider putting in on the night stand. :whistling:

  3. There's no need to be insulting people now.
  4. You should read the whole thread, Woods started it.
    Here's what he said to me after I questioned him on
    calling the .40 S&W a "stupid caliber"

  5. Yeah. It's amazing how hostile people get when talking about their preferred caliber. Me, I use 9mm now but I have no problem with .45. I don't like the .40 round but it'll do the job. 10mm is a cool round but its probably too much recoil for me to shoot comfortably + it's expensive and not commonly available.

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  6. Oh well, me I'm a gun nut, I like shooting anything that goes bang.

    I just happen to like the .40 for carry. But anything from
    .380 on up is better then having nothing on you.
  7. On my day job, I issued a .40 caliber pistol for 12 years. We now carry a .45 acp, which I am a huge fan of. Although I would carry my duty pistol off-duty occasionally, my off-duty pistols were either .45 acp or 9mm. I don't put people down for their caliber choice. As long as it fits their needs, and they can shoot it well, that's fine with me. I'd rather have someone put accurate rounds on a threat than shooting a caliber that they can't control. Not everyone will put in the time to train and become proficient with their chosen firearm, defensive ammo and gear.
  8. HKLovingIT

    HKLovingIT Resident Evil

    I own .38 Special, 9mm, .40s, .45 ACP and .357 SIG.

    I carry 9mm almost exclusively in an urban environment. Here is why it makes sense for me in that situation:

    1. I'm carrying Speer factory 124 gr Gold Dot +p which has a proven street and lab record. There is nothing boutique about it and if it is ever a legal question I can point to several major metropolitan departments with thousands of officers that carry the same load.

    2. The wolves travel in ever larger packs these days. For a given size firearm I want the most on tap within that platform that I can have, before a reload is required.

    3. Given the above point and that I tend to carry smaller pistols because of my personal logistics, the 9mm meets that requirement better for me. Yeah, I know it's usually only a round or two difference in most cases but I'll take it. Shot placement is king but in a dynamic situation with less than ideal shot placement I'll take the cumulative effect of two less than ideal hits with a 9mm over one less than ideal hit with a larger caliber. (Except 10mm which is known to lift the assailant clean off their feet with even a thumb hit, but it violates the Geneva conventions :tongueout:)

    4. I'm a civilian and I don't work in and around vehicles all day so the heavier caliber's auto glass performance is not a factor for me.

    5. I can shoot 9mm fast and accurate. In a me vs me comparison I will always outperform myself using 9mm versus another service caliber. Now I might shoot .40 or .45 faster and more accurate than another guy shoots 9mm but I can always out shoot me vs me using 9mm. I could shoot all year with a G27 and be damned good but at the end of that year I would still shoot a G26 that much better.

    6. The firearms that I carry most often were all originally designed around the 9mm. I have a gut feel belief that carrying a firearm in the caliber it was originally designed for gives the best reliability and lessens the chance of a freak parts breakage at a bad time.

    Do I think the .40 and .45 ACP are more effective by a degree or two? Yup. But given my above perceived personal requirements and situations I think the 9mm is my best choice for most of my carry situations. I think .357 SIG smokes them all in the common service calibers and if I was going to ditch the 9mm for everyday use (I'm not) I would go that route because it somewhat duplicates the famed 125gr .357 Magnum but in a platform that would work for me from a practical carry perspective.

    I do carry other calibers in more rural settings but then I usually do have a shotgun or rifle right there so it's moot.

    Good discussion.
    #148 HKLovingIT, Nov 23, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  9. Lawl.......
  10. SHOT PLACEMENT. I've read from one of the articles written by an experienced law enforcer (just forgot his name) that regardless of the caliber, shot placement determines whether a guy shot gets killed (or goes down) immediately or continues moving but drops after some time..If you hit him in the head between the eyes or directly in the heart, regardless of whether you used a .22 cal. or .45 caliber, the person would surely go down and cease to live immediately after..
  11. If a person gets a bullet through the heart they will bleed out and go down but it may not be instant. I believe it is like 10 to 15 seconds (don't quote me on the numbers) that you can continue to function if your heart is completely destroyed. So a person shot through the heart will go down pretty fast but they could continue to fight for several seconds before blood loss and lack of oxygen to the brain makes them go down.
    #151 Andy W, Nov 23, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  12. Warp


  13. Stop making sense!! There is no room for logic in a topic filled with internet hyperbole.
  14. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

    This is a very thoughtful description. A violent, murderous felon can do a lot of damage with those 10-15 seconds. That is why I practice for head shots with my G17.
  15. Good idea. It's actually quite possible the '86 FBI shootout in Miami would most likely have ended quite differently had the agents 1) been using heavier bullets in their 9mms as .38s and 2.) practiced head shots. Platt, who inflicted most of the FBI casualties during the fight, was actually mortally wounded fairly early on but was able to continue fighting for several minutes. I believe he actually inflicted most of these casualties after being fatally wounded. He took a 115 grain 9mm JHP through the arm, which continued on into his side, collapsing a lung and stopping less than 2" from his heart. Had the agents been using heavier 124-125 grain + bullets, he would have gone down a lot sooner and wouldn't have been able to kill the two agents or wound as many of the others. Maybe he would have fired a few more shots but it wouldn't have been as bad. In fact, I bet a nice 147 grain Hornady XTP would have done quite well with identical shot placement; probably taking out his heart as well as collapsing both lungs

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    #155 Andy W, Nov 25, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  16. If you do your job, the 9MM will do it's job.
  17. JimFS

    JimFS JimFS

    OK. All good discussions. But in the heat of battle what are the odds that you can make a head shoot? And is he standing still waiting for the shoot? And what about a miss? Where does it go? Remember the last NY shooting. 9 bystanders shot by LE taking down the bad guy. So, if in that situation (with my 9) certainly would not shoot once and wait 15 seconds, but enough to stop the threat. How many times? From reports I have read. (no I am not LE) Depending on size, (9 through 45), and bullet type, 2.1 to 2.4 rounds to stop a threat. Yes 9 was the highest (but many researched were FMJ). However the conclusions were that shot placement is #1, so carry what you can shoot well, not the biggest you have in the closet.
  18. Warp


    Stating it like that does not accurately represent what actually happened.
    #158 Warp, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  19. SCmasterblaster

    Millennium Member

    The NYC shooting goes to show you what one gets with poor shooting skills, NYC should enact a whole new, comprehensive training program.
  20. bdcremer

    bdcremer The No SpinZone

    When SHTF there are many things we say we will do however, these things are tremendously more difficult when the lead starts flinging. The FBI has done a lot of bullet testing and they still chose to stick with the .40 S&W.

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