close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Welcome to Glock Talk

Why should YOU join our Glock forum?

  • Converse with other Glock Enthusiasts
  • Learn about the latest hunting products
  • Becoming a member is FREE and EASY

If you consider yourself a beginner or an avid shooter, the Glock Talk community is your place to discuss self defense, concealed carry, reloading, target shooting, and all things Glock.

I believe...

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by ArrowJ, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. Japle

    Japle John, Viera, Fl

    820
    12
    Feb 26, 2000
    Viera, Florida
    So? It's still slavery. It's still people buying and selling and killing other people, splitting families, etc.

    Your comment is like saying, "The Hebrews had a higher standard of rape and murder".
     
  2. inertia186

    inertia186

    28
    0
    Dec 17, 2012
    California
    I suppose it is. Slavery is as horrendous as those other examples. All of the above is the result of one nation occupying another.

    So I suppose the Hebrews should have opted out of taking any land as a possession of their own. Because you really can't take the land without doing *something* with the people who are living there already.

    It's just so objectionable, right? I mean, we know better now. The Hebrews were had no right to military conquest. Nobody did. No one ever does. They should have all been nice to one a other and stayed on their own land.

    Their choices were limited to slaughtering their neighbors (which they often did), enslaving them (they also did this), or leaving them alone.

    Leaving them alone would ultimately backfire. The culture of the people they left alone would integrate together with theirs and they would no longer be a distinct nation.

    In the ancient context, mixing cultures meant that one culture would die.

    The Hebrews should have let themselves just die. Then they would have been a good example for us today.

    But they didn't do that. They did what other nations did. They used military conquest to try to expand their border. Oh how despicable.
     


  3. Japle

    Japle John, Viera, Fl

    820
    12
    Feb 26, 2000
    Viera, Florida
    Okay, now that we’ve agreed that God’s chosen people enslaved others, and that, in Exodus, God established his standards for the treatment of slaves, how do we reconcile God’s approval of slavery with our disapproval of it?

    Keep in mind that Exodus 22 starts with, “Then the LORD said to Moses”, and God lays down his laws (including the treatment of slaves) right through Exodus 31. That's your God talking. Better pay attention.
     
  4. inertia186

    inertia186

    28
    0
    Dec 17, 2012
    California
    It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion? The methods may be despicable to us now, but that's how it was done back then.
     
  5. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

    19,636
    1,945
    Jul 12, 2007
    :rofl::rofl:

    Well, as long as everyone else does it, it's not wrong.

    Never knew God was a moral relativist.

    Randy
     
  6. inertia186

    inertia186

    28
    0
    Dec 17, 2012
    California
    I think it was wrong *and* everyone did it. God makes concessions for things that are wrong. Concessions don't suddenly make immoral things moral. It just means that, given the mess you're in, here's what you do.
     
  7. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
    9
    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    I believe, that there is no proof that proves or disproves the existence (or prior existence) of a deity.

    I believe that atheism and theism are religious beliefs.
     
  8. Lone Wolf8634

    Lone Wolf8634 :):

    9,467
    1,153
    Dec 23, 2007
    Under the bus
    Yeah, we know.
     
  9. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
    9
    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    Glad I am being clear.

    Are you bothered when people don't believe the same way you do, or more likely, the way you wish they would?

    Enhance your calm, get over it.
     
  10. Japle

    Japle John, Viera, Fl

    820
    12
    Feb 26, 2000
    Viera, Florida
    Second of all, yes, I do approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion.
    First of all, what’s that got to do with approving of slavery?

    Your god not only allowed slavery to exist, he approved of it and set rules for slave owners. Trying to divert the conversation by bringing up war doesn’t change that.
     
  11. Do you believe Psalms 23?
     
  12. I thought I'd share this poem that I heard many years ago. It was written during WW2, on the wall of a cellar, by a Jewish prisoner in the Cologne concentration camp.

    "I believe in the sun
    even when it is not shining
    And I believe in love,
    even when there's no one there.
    And I believe in God,
    even when he is silent.

    I believe through any trial,
    there is always a way
    But sometimes in this suffering
    and hopeless despair
    My heart cries for shelter,
    to know someone's there
    But a voice rises within me, saying hold on
    my child, I'll give you strength,
    I'll give you hope. Just stay a little while.

    I believe in the sun
    even when it is not shining
    And I believe in love
    even when there's no one there
    But I believe in God
    even when he is silent
    I believe through any trial
    there is always a way.

    May there someday be sunshine
    May there someday be happiness
    May there someday be love
    May there someday be peace...."

    - Unknown
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  13. Apparently you are missing the point. The unbelievers here are trying to make God responsible for condoning slavery because He gave Israel rules to deal with slaves.

    Slavery was not restricted to.Israel. It was universally practiced.

    God was working within the framework of human culture at the time. Paul speaks about the Law of Moses as being a temporary bridge.

    Galatians 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
     
  14. Animal Mother

    Animal Mother Not Enough Gun

    13,373
    252
    Mar 22, 2004
    That wasn't the claim you made. You claimed that slavery, and the attendant slave markets, of the ancient world were different than the more recent instances of slavery.
    Even if true, how is this at all important to the topic we're discussing?
    Clearly they were as they managed to coexist for centuries, if not millenia.
    Fascinating, but I have to ask again, how does this factor into the topic under discussion? Which is, if you've forgotten, Vic's contention that Christianity doesn't allow for people being treated like property.
     
  15. Animal Mother

    Animal Mother Not Enough Gun

    13,373
    252
    Mar 22, 2004
    Why? Why couldn't God just tell His people the slavery was wrong and that they should knock it off? Why was the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe unable to come up with a solution better than slavery and genocide to provide for His people?
     
  16. inertia186

    inertia186

    28
    0
    Dec 17, 2012
    California
    You really don't know the connection between war and slavery?
     
  17. Japle

    Japle John, Viera, Fl

    820
    12
    Feb 26, 2000
    Viera, Florida
    Once again trying to divert the conversation by talking about war.

    If we're to believe the Bible, your god obviously approved of chattel slavery. Instead of telling his chosen people that slavery was wrong, he gave them a set of rules for keeping and buying and selling and killing their slaves. If you can't deal with that without changing the subject, just admit it.
     
  18. inertia186

    inertia186

    28
    0
    Dec 17, 2012
    California
    What if I'm really not changing the subject? What if there is a valid rationale?
     
  19. You're saying war justifies the abrogation of God's law.
     
  20. inertia186

    inertia186

    28
    0
    Dec 17, 2012
    California
    Isn't that generally what people believe?