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Hydrostatic Shock - That's the Ticket

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by PghJim, Oct 19, 2012.


  1. PghJim

    PghJim
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    I came across a DVD, "Bulletproof Legal Defense", that helps you survive the SD encounter and how to stay out of prison afterwards. It is presented by Peyton Quinn who has a couple of training sites. Anyway, he states that the ammo that causes the greatest hydrostatic shock (pressure) will be the most effect in neutralizing the threat, including handgun ammo. I found one of his websites and you can read it yourself and give your opinion.

    http://stresshooting.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=86

    Another thing I found interesting on the DVD was force on force training. The part that interested me was the BG was about 20 feet away when he pulls a knife and attacks. Even though the students knew it was going to happen, none could get a shot off before being stabbed.
     

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  2. ABNAK

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    Look at it this way: all other things being equal (shot placement, subject is or is not on drugs, same exact circumstances) the diameter of a bullet is miniscule in the equation. Granted, expanding HP's are preferable to FMJ, but the difference between a 9mm or 357Sig expanded to .58" and a .45ACP expanded to .75" is a minor factor in the "big picture". Sure, that .45ACP is making a hole .17" larger. Of equal velocity I guess I'd take the .45 for that reason.

    However, given the *possibility* of hydrostatic shock/stretch cavity/BPW actually having an additive effect on a subject that would hasten the cessation of hostilities I would tend to lean towards the round that gave it to me. That's where velocity comes into play.

    Choices?

    357Sig in 125gr, preferably the hot-rodded "boutique" ones at 1400+fps

    .40 in 150-155gr at 1200+fps

    9mm +P in 124gr at 1250fps (maybe 1200fps). Second choice would be a 115gr +P+ at 1300+fps.

    .45ACP +P in, well, no less than 185gr as long as it did it's tricks out of a smaller sized handgun for CCW (no larger than a Glock 19/23 for reference) ***Sidenote: I've heard the old Remington green/yellow box 185gr +P loads were pretty "dynamic", but IIRC that was out of a larger piece than I'd want to CCW.
     

    #2 ABNAK, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  3. PEC-Memphis

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    Shape plays a role here. Is the bullet shape going to push tissue aside (like a FMJ) or is it going to cut tissue it comes into contact with.

    Shape also effects how much, and where, energy is transferred from the bullet to the target.

    And it is really "hydrodynamic" rather than "hydrostatic" ....

    And water, as well as other fluids, are actually compressible - contrary to the statement at the website.
     
    #3 PEC-Memphis, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  4. cowboy1964

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    I don't even know where to begin with that. Even .380 ACP can create hydrostatic shock "on occasions"? What occasions would that be?
     
    #4 cowboy1964, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  5. cowboy1964

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    Water can only be compressed a few percent tops and that's under extreme pressure. For ballistic purposes it can be considered incompressible.

    http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/compressibility.html
     
    #5 cowboy1964, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  6. SCmasterblaster

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    Thank you very much! :cool:
     
  7. Henry's Dad

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    I always thought water was highly non-compressible.

    This was the explanation I was given as a kid when making water balloons: have as little air as possible in the balloon so that it is more likely to burst when you throw it at someone. Too much air in the balloon and the air pocket absorbs the shock and won't burst.
     
  8. M 7

    M 7
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    Nope, if it's got a bulk modulus, it's compressible.

    And, yes, water has a bulk modulus.
     
  9. PghJim

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    For our purposes the small compressibility of water is insignificant. In the video he had watermellons, which he shot with various rounds. He was up front in that they are not representations of humans, although they had the same water content. The rhine(sp)(skin) is very tuff. 45 ACP JHP's went through with little more than some cracking, 38 special was the same thing, but less cracking, 357 mag with JHP blew the water mellon completely apart. The 9mm JHP blew it apart a bit, but not nearly the same as the 357. He did not show a 40 S&W, but stated that the 357 magnum was the ultimate person stopper.
     
    #9 PghJim, Oct 20, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  10. digilo

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    When I read people saying that .45 only makes a .17" bigger hole than 9mm after expansion, I have to wonder what bullet weight has to do with all this.... it requires more of a counteracting force to expand 230 gr of lead than 125, this has to be accounted for somewhere in the wounding data.
     
  11. uz2bUSMC

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    There are other factors to consider besides the weight of the bullet. Diameter, frontal area and bullet construction are a few of these considerations. A 230 gr bullet in .45 caliber will have more frontal area than a 125 gr .357 upon contact with the counteracting force, as you put it. Thus, there is more of the media in contact with the bullet before expansion which is retarding it's movement. Also, as velocity doubles, retarding forces quadruple increasing the retarding force's ability to open the bullet. Some bullets are simply made weaker, regardless of weight, to open more easily or at lower velocities.
     
  12. uz2bUSMC

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    Probably when it expands rapidly in conjuction with very shallow penetration.
     
  13. RYT 2BER

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    Well than my 155 gr 10mm should ok :)
     
  14. Darkangel1846

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    Hydrostatic shock from a handgun......really? What nonsense!
     
  15. M 7

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    I agree. What a bunch of hokum. :animlol:

    I thought that such misconceptions (significant/meaningful hydrodynamic effect at handgun velocities- less than 1600fps) had gone the way of terms like "stopping power", "knockdown", and "energy dump".

    S'pose not. :dunno:
     
  16. SCmasterblaster

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    I'll be getting a .40 S&W soon.
     
  17. fastbolt

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    An article providing a trip down memory lane, highlighting & combining some of the commonly promoted opinions I remember hearing starting back in the early 70's. :whistling:

    FWIW, training to function while experiencing the physiological reactions occurring during the hormonal fear response, and having deeply ingrained proper skills available so someone can continue to effectively function under those conditions, without having to stop and try to think about it, is something that has been receiving attention in recent years.
     
    #17 fastbolt, Oct 20, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  18. M 7

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    All that is fine and dandy, but I'd question the value of any conclusions drawn from shooting watermelons, let alone the remainder of the website. Drawing conclusions from an invalid test medium (watermelons in this case) after admitting that they are an invalid medium is laughable at best and an insult to his reader's/client's intelligence.

    There's quite a bit wrong with that website, stuff that seems to make sense at first, but fails upon close examination like this-

    Almost every organ in the human body is "water-laden" to some extent, but he confuses the water content with elasticity, tensile strength, and rigidity. The stomach, bladder, intestines, and bowels are even more "water-laden" than the liver and kidneys yet they are not subject to the same degree of rupture that the liver and kidneys are because those organs have greater rigidity and less elasticity than most of the other organs in the human body.

    What a hot mess.

    "hydrocrack shock wave" ? :shocked:

    :freak:

    Seriously?

    He's gonna misattribute what was said in the FBI report FBI Report- "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" and then dismiss it as a result of shooting watermelons and after he trots out a term like "hydrocrack shock wave"?

    Nah, no thanks. :shakehead:
     
    #18 M 7, Oct 20, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  19. SCmasterblaster

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    I am relying on my G17 and the WW 115gr JHP +p+. :cool:
     
  20. chargingzebra

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    Fastbolt hit the nail on the head. Skip your next gun purchase and invest in some quality stress shoot or force on force combat marksmanship training.

    When things go south, a .50 cal in the hands of someone who is overcome with fear and adrenaline will be less effective than one with a .22 and a cool head. Caliber matters, but should be secondary to being able to perform in these types of situations.

    Also, generally the larger the caliber the less rounds you can fit in the gun. I go with .40 for the fact that it offers a decent trade off of energy, mag capacity, speed and accuracy that I find best suits my needs.

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