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How do you get past

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by SCmasterblaster, Dec 31, 2012.


  1. SCmasterblaster

    SCmasterblaster
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    the wall of doubts in one's head when it is time to shoot someone? I have been reading legal horror stories since 1989 (the year that I became a student of CCW). Should I just let my G17 do the talking and remain silent until my attorney arrives?
     

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  2. The Fed

    The Fed
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    I don't know the laws of Vermont, but in general you are allowed to defend yourself in your home. Do you have the duty to retreat? That will make a huge difference in what you eventually say. There are too many variations to cover them all here. More than likely, you will be in state of shock - unless you're a combat veteran. If it was me, I'm betting my heart will be racing and I'll be hyperventilating. When you call the police for help make sure they bring an ambulance - for you and the perp if he's still breathing. Better off to say you'll talk about it after you calm down. Too many people babble and jam themselves up.
     

  3. Shark1007

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    Remaining silent is a great idea. The rest, no one can answer. I have been concerned, as an ex LEO and lawyer these days, that the officer standing in my front yard with a gun drawn to defend me will be evaluating his potential liability rather than focusing on protecting me or my family.

    Back in the day, as young cops and SWAT types, there were many of us who never talked about anything but feet per second and muzzle energy. Now, it's written in stone on the internet. If a civilian is involved in a shooting and these type posts are dug up, you have a pickle to deal with.

    Best I can say is to quote a Supreme Court Justice who, when asked in a famous case to define pornography. " I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

    Same with defending yourself or family. Listen to the little voice, if it says "run" then run. I think of a concealed weapon as something to slow down an agressor so you can haul ass, not to drop them in their tracks, etc. It's wise to be prepared and hopeful the effort is wasted.

    I know you from prior posts to be a thoughtful and decent human being. I can imagine how uncomfortable you would be if the "let my Glock 17 do the talking" post were blown up as an exhibit with the crying family of a deceased huddled up against you in a court room.
     
    #3 Shark1007, Dec 31, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  4. WT

    WT
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    It sounds like you are in serious need of training.
     
  5. Shark1007

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    Great point, professional training goes a long way for anyone.
     
  6. ViennaGambit

    ViennaGambit
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    Dont be a ****ing hero.

    I would not shoot anyone unless I am protecting my life or the life of my family.

    After the fact, you will most likely be in a state of shock and should tell the officer such and that you cannot make a statement until you've calmed down. Give the officer your gun and call your lawyer (that you already have chosen in the event of such a time).
     
  7. DaneA

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    Judging from many of your 9,xxx posts I really don't think remaining silent is something you would be capable of. So you might want to come up with a better plan.
     
  8. bobtheelf

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    If there are doubts, you probably shouldn't shoot.
     
  9. Keoking

    Keoking
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    Start by fantasizing about killing everyone you meet. If at some point it feels right, blast away. And do not talk to the cops.
     
  10. GT4494

    GT4494
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    Unless they are wearing their hat....:tongueout:
     
  11. janice6

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    If you are carrying a firearm you should have no doubts as to when it will be necessary to fire it at another person. You have to make this decision long before it becomes necessary. You have to be honest with yourself as to how much threat you will absorb before you respond with deadly force.

    You have to remember that when you need to defend yourself you will not have the time to stand and debate the issue in your mind. You will be dead. You have to know the borderline that when crossed by the threat, will result in your action.

    No one can figure this out for you. When you will use deadly force on another human being is something you have to decide for yourself.

    Yes. Everyone in the country will second guess every millisecond of your actions and reactions. You will have to know that you did what you had to do, when you had to do it. You will also have to realize that if a jury doesn't agree with your decision, you will spend time in jail. You, however, probably will be alive.

    If being alive is important to you then you will have to live with whatever decision you have made. If you cannot decide, line up some friends for pall bearers, because you will not get a chance to try for a "do over".

    You have to figure out what and when you will do something, if anything. If you don't believe you can defend yourself with deadly force, please don't carry a gun, it will be taken from your body and used on another innocent thanks to you.

    Good luck on your decision. I have made mine.
     
  12. engineer151515

    engineer151515
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    Three great posts right off the bat.

    My rules
    Protect life.
    Children get behind me.
    You move, I move.
    Call 911.
     
  13. NEOH212

    NEOH212
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    I never had to shoot a person but I did have to defend myself against a attacking dog back a few years ago.

    It came right off someones porch and charged me. I didn't have any time to think about anything other than drawing my gun and firing.

    I was convinced in that instant that if I didn't, something really bad was going to happen to me and I was going to get torn up pretty bad.

    I fired one round at near point blank range that ended the encounter. The overly plump sergeant that responded didn't know the law in Ohio and gave me a bunch of BS about it.

    It took me three months to get my gun back but I got cleared of any wrong doing by the DA and the shooting was ruled justifiable. I never did get a attorney but I can tell you if I had to do it all over, I'd certainly get one.

    After speaking with several officers that know the DA personally after all this was over, they said the saving grace on my part was that I cooperated with the police and gave them a statement of what happened immediately after the fact. Also because I remained near by until the police arrived, and that in my statement I outlined every step of what happened and it was notability to the letter of the law.

    I was told this carried a lot of weight in his decision to not peruse any charges and deem the shooting justifiable. It also helped me that the gentleman that owned the dog was cited before for his dogs being at large and that several local LEO's have had run in's with his dogs that they were able to attest to.

    Considering all the red tape there was to deal with from a shooting of this type, I couldn't imagine how awful the legal ramifications would be to have to shoot a person in self defense.
     
    #13 NEOH212, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  14. FireForged

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    if there is doubt, my firearm stays holstered.
     
  15. Triple7

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    Well to start I live in Texas so laws are more defense friendly.

    If my life or my family's is in danger I will have to make a quick decision based on the circumstances. I hope I make the right one. I was taught: if it was a good shooting to leave the scene for my safety, call my lawyer and then make a statement. Also saying thing like "show me your hands, and call 911" help your case. But in a good shooting in Texas you have committed no crime so you are not fleeing the scene. Keep your mouth closed until your lawyer gets there.
    I don't think any training (as a civilian) that you can do can prepare you to take a life, but protective instinct goes a long way.
     
  16. Glockrunner

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    HOOYA DEEPSEA

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    Even as a police officer it won't come easy. You'll hesitate too long the first time. If you survive, you'll have advanced beyond that question.
     
  17. steveksux

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    For me, thinking of a line that you won't cross helps. Won't be herded into a walk in cooler, won't be transported from the scene of a robbery (they'll only take you somewhere more private, more conducive to killing you without having to worry about witnesses, people hearing the shot, etc).

    Learn the laws where you are, what's required in order to be justified. Once you understand the law, the decision is easier. At that point, when you're more concerned with what the guy in front of you is going to do to you RIGHT NOW than you are with what the guy behind you is going to do to you in prison for the next 20 years then the person threatening you is fair game. Since that's what awaits you if your shooting is not justified. Realize that police do shoot people in self defense. Police are the good guys. You would be too. It's also prudent to not be too eager to engage at the first hint of passing the bare minimum criteria for using deadly force. It may be necessary in some cases, true enough, but better to be on more solid ground, the grey areas where the ice is thin is best avoided when the penalty for being mistaken is prison.

    Think about it right now, and engrain it in your psyche, that there is no ethical, moral, or legal issue or shame if you're forced to take a life to defend your own, or your family's, or an innocent bystander. Say that again to yourself, right now, and keep on saying it until you believe it in your heart. You after all, do not make the decision to take a life. They made the decision that forced you to do so. That alternative was forced upon you by the perpetrators actions and decisions. You do not control the situation, they do. Their decisions created the scenario where it is permissible to employ deadly force, and their actions leave you with no choice. Their actions lead to your reaction. I see it as similar logic to felony murder rules. The blame for taking a life is theirs, and theirs alone, not yours.

    In the midst of a robbery is not the time to weigh the moral imperatives of using deadly force. You'll have your hands full assessing the situation to decide when and if to act on a purely practical level, and dealing with the adrenaline and stress while you attempt to carry out the actions involved should you decide to act. Wrong time to ponder if taking a human life is a morally defensible act in the midst of that.

    Figure out a set of your personal set of triggers. You must figure out when it is legal to employ deadly force so you recognize such a situation correctly and do not act prematurely, out of naked fear rather than reasonable fear. You must figure out when it is necessary to act RIGHT NOW without hesitation, and when it is safer to bide your time and look for an opening where you have the advantage. Distractions, hands full, turns his back on your for a moment. You may only have a split second to take advantage of a lapse in concentration. You must be able to act in time to take advantage of it. You must think like a predator, not a victim.

    I've been in 1 robbery, prior to being legally able to carry, so I was unarmed. So clearly I'm no operator, have not BTDT in the sense of actually having to employ deadly force. I can tell you when I think I would have, when I think I should have, and when I would have had serious misgivings. I cannot tell you if I would have froze, if I would have performed adequately, let alone admirably. My legal analysis has not withstood the harsh glare of the DA afterwards deciding whether to charge me.

    The above is merely my uninformed opinion of one possible approach to take, one which allowed me to make peace with the possibility of taking a human life should it become necessary, and recognize when it's in fact appropriate to do so, such that I won't hesitate when I should act, and won't act when I should hesitate.

    Randy
     
    #17 steveksux, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  18. steveksux

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    Possibly, even probably. That addresses the mechanics. Mindset seems to be the major issue, to me, though, and while training can give you stuff to ponder to fix that, all the training on paper targets in the world does not address the change in mindset required.

    Otherwise you may end up one of those who find they can't or won't pull the trigger when the situation calls for it.

    Randy
     
  19. dosei

    dosei
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    There are a few things that you really should say.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCZXZMYyRl4"]Massad Ayoob (Aftermath Shooting) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. FriarTuck

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    Have some intermediate stage(s) available to you below the level of your G17. Study a martial art. Carry pepper spray. Run away if at all possible.