Hey, Tazz, how's the .223XR coming?

Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by Tamara, Apr 19, 2000.


  1. Rusty, with regards to rifling, I intend to use an aftermaket 6 or 7 inch barrel with conventional rifeling. The 1 in 9 twist works well in the AR's so it should be fine.

    I agree that 25's would be better in some respects the reasons mentioned, but I want it in 223, the bullet selection is better and trajectory is flater in 223 and I can think of a few other reasons too! But purley as a wildcat, I think 25 would be a better choice. No patent infringements on a real 10 x 25.......heheehe.

    My personal opinion is if we are to use sabots, we should be able to get a sabot maker to pony up for a 9mm to 223 sabot. That would sell to a broader market of 9 mm based guns. We could use the dillion 10 X 25 and buy stock barells and dies already on the market!!! Have you considered this taz? I know it would take a barrel change for 10mm but i think start up costs could be pushed on to a sabot maker, like one of the two that I refered to you eariler?
     

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  2. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
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    Yep, i've considered all this stuff... and i think that the .25 is a good idea too... it is also possible that the same sabot that is used for the .223 can be used for the .25, and there are alot of different .25 bullets out there both for rifle and pistol. If we can get one sabot to work for a range of bullet sizes we could really keep costs down. As for what a particular bullet will do, look at how each bullet considered performs at whatever the projected velocity will be. For instance, a .223 Rem starting 3240fps at the muzzle is going about 1610fps at 400yds, so, look to see how that bullet performs on prairie rats (for instance) at 400yds to get an idea how the same bullet will perform at around 25-50 yds in .223XR form. Estimated velocity for a 55grainer .223XR is about 1800-2100fps at the muzzle. It might go faster, but it is really hard to tell not knowing what is going to happen with pressures and powder volume limitations. What would really be cool is to use teflon sabots... [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] but that would for sure raise up the price a bit, but i dont know how much... Teflon is really expensive compared to other plastics, but... a sabot doesnt use much plastic/Teflon... [​IMG] Also, the sabots could/should be silicon coated... Also, variations in sabot design is not that big a deal after the first design is done, as most of the work is already done.

    Just remember, no experiment is a failure...

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    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     

  3. Tamara

    Tamara Immoderate
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    Have we been over the bullet setback thing and I just slept through it? I can't find my notes... [​IMG]

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    Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
    10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
    10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
     
  4. Fredalso

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    Good question, Tamara. (And good to see you here again.)

    One of the nice things about a straight-walled case is a natural resistance to setback. But I don't believe we've talked about the [plastic] sabot's weaker strength, where less friction will result. Perhaps a case cannelure just behind the sabot base (ala Federal 9mm and others) would help reduce setback.

    If the design migrated to a necked case, such as based on the 9x25D, then the sabot could have one or more crimp grooves built in. Since headspace is on the shoulder, a small roll crimp should work.

    Interesting thing about using a 9x25D - there would be more powder space when using long bullets. But I do wonder if the plastic would stand up to the powder flame on all sides.
     
  5. Fred/Tamara,

    If a 30 cal to .223 sabot can handle the heat, the 10mm to .223 should be ok, provide they are made of similar material!

    I think a canelured sabot would be the way to go, because we can't have any bullet set back, no, no, no! (its easy to put in the mold and you dont have to use the canelure)

    The small point of these rounds should help prevent them from nose diving squarly into the feed ramp to cause it in the first place, but it seems to me that even with the straight walled case the plastic would be more willing to set back then a jacketed bullet, so here again either on the case or better yet on the sabot, I would like see a canelure to be sure.

    I prefer a fully kneced down brass case to roll crimp right on a .223 bullet myself, just like the Boz but If a 10mm sabot can be made I would shoot!
     
  6. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
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    Yes, the sabot gets a canalure. It's also shaped at the front like a typical 10mm bullet for reliable feeding.

    As for strength of the sabot, there are some really cool plastics out there which are very strong and fire resistant. Also, they are self-lubricating so that should help in the velocity realm as well as with cleaning.

    The sabot is also designed to take the pressure of firing and transfer it all to moving the bullet.

    The combination should allow us to use a very fast burning powder and help us to make up for some of that lost space in the powder room.

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  7. Great Tazz, I have never seen a canilure on a sabot, so that is a nice improvement. All the ones I've seen do have tapered conical bullet like shapes but I think its more to decrease the weight (smaller weight disturbs the larger mass less) becasue the 223 tip is going to stick out so far out and be hitting the feed ramp and directing the bullets path long before the sabot comes into play.

    Well, all I can say is I'm as ready as I was last year, more speed to you!!!!!


     
  8. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
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    The way i got this thing designed, i dont know as if the tip will hit the feed ramp at all. The way the G29 is designed, the bullet almost goes straight into the chamber... and the way the sabot is designed, the sabot will hit the feed ramp way before the tip of the bullet hits it. If a bullet/gun combo is designed correctly, the tip of the bullet should NEVER touch anything. Any deformation of a the tip of a bullet, (obviously an issue with soft points), will throw accuracy right into the trash...

    As for the canalure... i am not really sure that the sabot really needs one at all... as the sharp edge of the case will easily dig into the plastic of the sabot... but... i figure it might be nice to have an "edge" for the case mouth edge to butt up into as that might give a little more positive hold on any back pressure, and maybe it will lessen the need for as much crimp pressure.


    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  9. Tamara

    Tamara Immoderate
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    BTT...

    Just noticed that this thread has been in constant rotation since 4/20. Can't just let it die!

    ------------------
    Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
    10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
    10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
     
  10. Rusty Phillips

    Moderator Millennium Member

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    you would have to dig it up yet again....

    ye troublemaker
     
  11. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
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    Trouble maker yea, but, SO good at it! [​IMG]

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  12. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

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    Yes! The rumors are TRUE! I found a source to get the 223XR sabot made just for us!! We are now waiting on a price from them.......... AAAAK!! The waiting is killing me! [​IMG] I also have a source to load them commercially..... [​IMG]

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  13. HiCap

    HiCap Saved by grace
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    Load them commercially? That may be expensive, can we buy the sabots and load our own? Hey, then we'll have the 223XR short loaded in a 40 case, hmm. Imagine a 40 carbine with a Schere 29rd mag loaded with 223XR sabots! Then the 223XR Super loaded in a 40 Super case, wow. It'll be like a handheld semi-auto 22-250. Then we can put on one of those funky carbine uppers and make a real blaster. This is great!

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    Big Dawg #175
     
  14. PurchGuru

    PurchGuru Senior Member
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    Hey Taz ... did you leave the gate open again ??? Now we have to chase those dawgs out again !!!

    They get so envious of our good caliber !
     
  15. Wulfenite

    Wulfenite The King

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    Perhaps Tazz's source can put together some rock salt loads in 10mm to help control the mutts. [​IMG]

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    Wulfenite
    10-Ring Member #359
    10mm - That's Gonna Leave A Mark...
     
  16. Fredalso

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    But seriously, folks......

    We should welcome our brethern from lesser places; how else can they learn? [​IMG]

    Hicap-
    It would have potential for the 40 Super [does that need an "(R)"?).
    But I have some concern, perhaps unfounded, about setback in the bottlenecked case.
    I think a plastic sabot would not hold in the neck as well as a metal bullet.

    Now if the sabot had a (potential) crimp groove, then the case mouth could be roll-crimped into it.
     
  17. G33

    G33 Frisky!
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    My G20 is getting real excited!! [​IMG]

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    Grock (first Glock: 1,000,000 B.C.)
     
  18. HiCap

    HiCap Saved by grace
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    Fredalso, I am pretty sure a cannelure was already decided on. If not then hopefully I can cannelure them if needed.

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    Big Dawg #175

    [This message has been edited by HiCap (edited 09-09-2000).]
     
  19. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
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    Plastic sabots are so soft that we may not need a cannelure, but we will put one in if we need it. Plastic is self lubricating and so "slippery" so we may need a little help from a cannelure, but we have to be careful because the cartridge headspaces on the rim. So far though, i dont see any problem with going with a sabot, rather i see more benefits. Also, by rigging up a little jig, the sabots could be drilled out on center and made to accept larger bullets like the .308 or .357, etc,. I guess that would give the .357 Sig a little run for it's money. [​IMG]

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  20. Fredalso

    Millennium Member

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    For use in 10mm, if there is a setback problem, we could maybe solve it by a cannelure in the case, just below the sabot base. Sort of like Federal does with all their 9mm ammo.

    For use in 40 Super, a roll crimp should work, with the cartridge seating on the shoulder.
     

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