Hey, Tazz, how's the .223XR coming?

Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by Tamara, Apr 19, 2000.


  1. poochg,

    It's just a starting point I would say. If you saw the last post there by "benchjewler" on 6/28, all he needs is to have Kurt cut 22BR dies and have a barrel made and start resizing 22BR brass ----> 22BRS.
    As Rusty said, they're working on one for a 45. The 308 case, which was the parent of the 22BR, is the parent of the 22 BRS (Bench Rest Short)as it's being called.
    I'm not an expert on this stuff. But the only way to find out how much case capacity it'll have is for someone to make the brass and do that "water test" as I think I heard to find out the volume.
    The case is strong, and for experimenting, you want that, at least that's what I would want personally. Later, if this round catches on, and testing shows that the case pressues are lower/significatly lower then what the parent case can handle, the case can be redesigned, increasing volume. At that point, someone could ask Starline or another brass maker to mass produce it. But in the testing phase....... This stuff takes time and $$$$$$.
    It took time to for us to find out the world was round, and it took time for us to get to the moon, one small step at a time. It'll take time to get the 22BRS tested. (The Boz went through a lot of testing....those damn Brits spent lots of pounds on it I bet.)

    Here's a dumb thought....I think it's dumb, but..... Any one think of making a Boz case duplicate, except for the caliber? Make it into a .17 caliber (.172"). A little small....

    Kaliburz
     

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  2. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

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    Still trying to find the right company to make the sabots, and i am also still fine tuning the sabot design before i call them. If i do it right i believe we can actually get some fairly decent accuracy out of it.

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     

  3. Tamara

    Tamara Immoderate
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    Chatting with Lendringser today he brought up some good, if somewhat killjoy, points. Will a saboted round have enough spin to stabilize out of a pistol? For defense use, you gotta worry about the discarded sabot bits. They'll definitely put an eye out inside 7 yards. Just some points that may or may not have already been considered...

    ------------------
    Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
    10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club, Big Dawg #447
    10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
     
  4. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

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    The spin looks to be about perfect, but we will of course have to test it, and the sabot is designed to hold together and "parachute" away allowing the bullet to continue forward without effecting flight. I'm not sure it would be ideal as a hostage rescue round, and as for using it as a general purpose personal defense round, i would rather have a heavier bigger mushrooming round...

    Now on the other hand as a "Special Purpose" round for special vermin and other "recreational" uses, i think it has LOTS of potential... [​IMG]

    One more REALLY cool thing... you could also alternate rounds with this little set up.... oooooooooo.... [​IMG]

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  5. Tazz,

    When they're ready, I'd like to purchase some. May not have a 10mm, yet, but I guess I can experiment in my......40

    Kaliburz
     
  6. Shred

    Millennium Member

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    There's no way a real US patent on the .224 BOZ cartridge is going to stand up (CD probably cheaped out and filed for a Design patent, which covers the _exact_ design, but change an angle or two and you're scot-free). That would be good enough for them-- with that patent they can control BOZ ammo and barrel manufacturers. Good for us too, we can do what we want.

    -Shred (played with a .224 BOZ once)
     
  7. Shred,

    Intersting.....very interesting. Gonna have to do more research.

    You played with one!!! Lucky Dog. How much "playing"....got to shoot it or just look at it? Come on, let us know.....

    Kaliburz
     
  8. double tap but I held off on the mozenbeek!

    [This message has been edited by poochg (edited 07-17-2000).]
     
  9. First of all I'm jealous.....Now I want to know every little detail.......

    Well, tell us man......was it the out of the 1911, the Glock the mp5, did you just play with the ammo, like juggling it, what kind of play, where were you, can I go there? (you know stuff like that man) If the Glock, how was it modified?

     
  10. Shred

    Millennium Member

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    Well, all I got to do was fiddle with the pistol (a modified 6" STI Hunter-- rebarreled and had the funky Briley front-end), and some of the brass/loaded rounds. At that time there were only about a dozen or so loaded rounds in the country, so I didn't get to shoot any [​IMG]. Customs had decided that the reloading dies were some sort of barrel and weren't letting them in.

    I did talk to somebody that had shot it and he said recoil was pretty light (a .22 cal bull-barrel will do that)

    The round looks even wierder and stubbier in person.

    - Shred
     
  11. Shred

    Millennium Member

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    Well, all I got to do was fiddle with the pistol (a modified 6" STI Hunter-- rebarreled and had the funky Briley front-end), and some of the brass/loaded rounds. At that time there were only about a dozen or so loaded rounds in the country, so I didn't get to shoot any [​IMG]. Customs had decided that the reloading dies were some sort of barrel and weren't letting them in.

    I did talk to somebody that had shot it and he said recoil was pretty light (a .22 cal bull-barrel will do that)

    The round looks even wierder and stubbier in person.

    - Shred
     
  12. Tazzzzzz,

    Give us an update.......
     
  13. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

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    Still looking into who is going to make the sabot. I got it designed, now i just got to get it made...

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  14. Well, what is required of the producer, what qualifications are needed to produce this item, injection molding, ???? poured molding? what kind of company should be looking for, we have many a hightec company in Southern Calif and we have a lot of resourses here on GT!!! Let us know, we want to help.......

     
  15. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

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    Ultra precision, for one. If the sabot is going to "peel" away from the spinning bullet/sabot combo without touching the bullet and effecting it as it peels away the sabot is going to have to be absolutely precise and balanced all the way around. At those speeds, the slightest little difference in the thickness or shape of the plastic could cause the sabot to "bump" the bullet as it peels away.

    Are there any CAD/CAM freaks among us?

    Also, sooner or later the issue of money is going to come up when it comes to the actual mold making and molding of the sabot. Cost of plastic will be next to nothing, but the making of the mold and time on the molding equipment is going to have to cost something... i dont know how much of that we can get "donated" or traded for whatever. I would like to see this whole project done as a 10Ring group thing, non-profit, with the proceeds going to a worthy cause. Everyone involved could get credit for it, with marketing exposure for the companies that help. I think it would also bring alot more people into the world of versatile 10mm... and all the good stuff that goes with that! [​IMG]

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  16. I'll help. But I want my name to be on the case headstamp.
     
  17. Q-Ball

    Q-Ball Dismember
    Millennium Member

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    Hey Tazz.
    If you ever decide to get away from the sabot idea let me know. I have a buddy who is quite the machinist, he could easily cut a chamber reamer to your specifications. I know thats only one link in the chain, but it is one step closer.
    Later
    Q


    ------------------
    We are the people our parents warned us about.
     
  18. Tazz10m

    Tazz10m Mod Aerator
    Moderator Millennium Member

    1,658
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    Hock, would that be ".223 Hock"? Nice to dream, huh?

    Q-Ball, your offer is SO tantalizing! But, developing a necked down cartridge could be looked at as being a copy-cat... and might even bring patent infringement litigation swarming right out of the wood work... so, i think it might just be better to stick with the sabot... hey... can your buddy make sizing dies for the brass? [​IMG]

    ------------------
    The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

    Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

    Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
     
  19. Rusty Phillips

    Moderator Millennium Member

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    any chance on getting a 10mm to .25 caliber sabot as well? (didnt think so)

    any other thoughts on the 25 instead of .224?

    Im concerned that most available .224 (rifle) bullets are too long (longer than similar wts. in 25 cal)....

    seems that the 25 acp 50 grain fmj bullet would be cheap, have helacious penetration at the velocities attainable, and allow more powder (cause it is shorter) than a .224 bullet of the same weight.

    does anyone make a round nose FMJ .224 (for the 218 bee or the hornet or ????) I guess it would be a 40 grainer for the 218 bee..... what kind of cost are they per hundred?

    sorry for rambling, just curious.
     
  20. Fredalso

    Millennium Member

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    Good point ( [​IMG]) Rusty -
    A .224 55gr FMJBT is around 0.740" long, and would need some plastic behind it, while a 180gr JHP is just about 0.640". But 25ACP bullets may be constructed lightly. (I don't have ANY to check.)

    And the 40gr .224 bullets I've found are all designed for expansion, so that's a tradeoff as well.

    And as you imply, the bullet nose shape, and the sabot shape, must play together well in order to get good feed reliability.

    Also, rifling twist was mentioned before. I wonder if the sabots will take the Glock rifling well, with the accelleration they'll get. If so, then the 9.8" twist is fine. But many aftermarket barrels use 16" twist.

    Details, details, details.
    Lots of room for experimentation, unfortunately.
     

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