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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by cowboy1964, Aug 12, 2010.
I haven't. If you have any such links please post!
You didnt state conditions though... I have seen HSTs that didnt expandd, and some that had minimum expansion. The following are 180 grain HSTs through four-layers of denim out of a G27. Note the top two with minimum expansion, and the others with no expansion. My apologies for shoddy focusing, but we got a new camera, and it doesnt like to take pictures up close.
With those 180 40's did the HP plug with denim? I personally prefer 165 grain bullets in 40 caliber.
I have seen tests in which HST didn't expand. Every bullet can fail. Premium rounds are marginally better than standard JHP bullets. Some will fail to expand from time to time. I must say that I have had good tests from both PDX1 and Ranger T in 165 40 caliber.
Yes, Griz, they plugged up with denim, and completely passed through my block of gelatin. The only way I caught them was with a gallon jug of water behind that and some more denim. If I didnt have the catch (learned from past experiences) I wouldve lost all of those bullets and wouldnt have known that they failed to expand. But I have shot HSTs through plywood (3/8") with a G22 and had them expand. I think it just boils down to what weapon was used.
Thats pretty impressive. The only HST I ever fired and recovered the bullet was a 180gr .40 from a G27 into an old LCD computer monitor (think printer scene from Office Space ) and surprisingly it expanded pretty nicely.
I wonder if they clogged because the G27 didn't give them enough velocity?
What effect does velocity have on the potential for HP clogging? I don't think I've ever seen any detailed info on that.
Hence my increasing confidence in carrying heavy for caliber FMJ.
IMHO, I believe the extra velocity is going to help the hollow point overcome whatever resistance the denim is providing and allow the fluids to flow past, through, or push away the denim allowing the bullet to expand. Denim is a tough material, and I have seen as little as two layers inhibit expansion. The 124 gr+P Ranger T-Series come to mind. I tested them about five years ago, and denim was a formidable foe against them. I was surprised at the results, but after testing almost the entire box and part of another one, I chocked it up to a bad lot because the other box didnt have those problems.
I had the same problem with some RA45T. I shot ten rounds, and only 7 of them expanded through 4 layers of denim. Seventy percent isnt bad odds, but when it comes to trusting your carry ammo, theres still a 30% chance that your bullet will not expand through heavy clothing (in that particular case, mind you). You would still have two .45 caliber holes through the attacker, but I am bigger fan of expansion and the bullet staying in them. I think I even read about it somewhere where there was some lot probems with the RA45T not expanding during the denim test, but cannot remember where I saw it.
And please, do not take this as me bashing Ranger T-Series ammunition. I carry it daily in my G27; 165 grains of mind-changing sizzle. I chose it because I did do a mess load of testing to find out what was going to work well in my firearm, expansion and penetration testing, and function-wise. But there are times when some bad fodder comes rolling our way, and thats when I debate whether or not to tell Winchester, considering that I am purportedly not even supposed to have it. To this day, I have kept my mouth shut but my eyes open for new ammo.
Mind you, when I said 'expand', I was not refering to the nice pretty star/flower that we have all come to love, but instead, peeling back the jacket, and just barely showing the skiving on the inside of the hollow point of what would have been the lead petals. It would be what I would call the first stages of expansion. Plywood is even worse than denim when it comes to plugging up a HP because it doesnt have the pliability and is not easily forced out of the way. i think when it comes to plywood, you have to get lucky that it actually gets pulled/pushed out somehow, whether by fluid action or some other type of foreign help. No, we dont usually have these types of shooting encounters, but it would be nice to know what our ammunition is going to do on the other end should we have to shoot through these types of barriers.
Honestly, I would like to set up a closer to real world type shooting, where bone, muscle and connective tissue are involved. I just would hate to buy a rack of ribs and a brisket to do it though, because those things are better to smoke and eat than to shoot all to hell.
All this talk about non-expansion among the best of the best JHPs there are got me looking at Federal's EFMJ again. But that seems to be too much of a compromise. Penetration seems iffy with those. Better to stick with real JHPs.
As many people on here and other gun forums have stated, there is no perfect hollowpoint out there. They have come up with different designs to try and alleviate the clogging issues, HydraShoks had the post, but still had problems with clogging with materials, HSTs have a larger cavity and skiving on the jacket and within the bullet itself to aid in expansion, but honestly, I think that the larger hollow point is going to catch more debris, but in the same instance allow more fluids to pass into the hollow point to help it expand.
There have been many successful police shootings utilizing the HydraShoks, but how many of them were evaluated after the fact. Did they expand as designed or did they merely only find the right area of the perpetrators vital organs to render them unable to continue with their tirade?
Gold Dots are another bullet that have seen many shootings as well, and performed admirably in most of those cases. But I again ask, did those bullets perform exactly as designed in each of those cases?
Each bullet design is going to have its pros and cons, and its up to us as consumers to decided what we want finally as our carry ammunition. I have not had any encounters with the Federal EFMJ, so I cannot speak here about it, but considering its design, it seems like a good combination of two worlds, the feed profile of a FMJ with the expansion characteristics of a JHP.
I am no expert on bullets, but I only relay what I have seen doing my own independent research, spending countless hours and a lot of money doing so. Mostly it was to find an ammunition that would be compatible with whatever firearm I was intending to use, but in the same instance, I wanted to share my findings with all of you, not to sway a decision, just to possibly help someone make an informed decision.
In the past I have carried Black Talons, HydraShoks, Gold Dots, Silvertips, ect., but it all boiled down to what would feed, and at the same time what would give the best overall 'after-the-fact' performance. If I ever did have to use them in self-defense, would they live up to the expectations that we have placed upon them? Alot of people do not know what their ammo will do after they have shot it, but only consider how well it works in their firearms.
In a way its kind of like reloaders; they spend countless hours and untold amounts of money to find that perfect load for their weapons. I went through five different powders and twice as many types of bullets for my .308 Win to find two loads that would give me pinpoint accuracy and shoot to the same POA. One is a hunting load, the other is a target load which could be used as a hunting load in a pinch (165 gr SST over H4895 and 168 gr Hornady BTHP over Varget). And yes, I have shot both into water and gelatin to see how they would expand. The SST's look just like they do on the box and in the catalogs. The BTHPs are violent, and produce ALOT of shrapnel. I shot an old block of gel with a BTHP, giving it a final coup de grace. It literally blew it into chunks and spread it around over a twenty-thirty foot radius.
But I would ask everyone to consider this. Take a few jugs of water to the range with you, shoot them, see what your bullets will look like after they have expanded. No, water nor gelatin is a perfect substitute for flesh and bone, but it gives an approximate idea on how your ammo will perform if and when you need to use it.
i have had a 180gr HST fail to expand after being clogged with plywood. Passed through all 5 jugs and when the round was recovered it only had a slight buldge due to the hollowpoint cavity plugging. I can say the plywood was packed tight inside the HP cavity
HST will fail just like any other hollow point when it gets clogged. It is not the mythical magic bullet that we all have been waiting for.