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Gun show loop hole??

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Psychman, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    And you were charged for a NICS check? I've never been charged for a NICS check. Find a new dealer.

    Big freakin deal. Is your buddy in prison for murder? That's seems to be what you want to imply here:

    There is a world of difference between once owning a gun that was used in a crime and being prosecuted on that basis.

    Was the friend who shot the trooper a convicted felon?

    Actually, what you've pointed out here is a point we've been making throughout the thread. 4473 is a defacto gun registration and some of you people here seem ok with that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  2. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    Was it not a quote attributable to Jefferson? Author of the Declaration of Independence and 3rd President of the United States?
     

  3. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    No he didn't. He wrote the first draft. It was revised about a dozen times by committee before being ratified.

    What did the Constitution Madison drafted say about who would confirm that court and how those people (the Senate) would be selected?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  4. czsmithGT

    czsmithGT

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    Here is another one.

    "But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 1816
     
  5. czsmithGT

    czsmithGT

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    So what?
     
  6. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    So the court you referenced has strayed from the institution it was designed to be and become a hyper-political animal. That's what. The court is wrong, a lot. Hell, it just re-wrote the ACA.

    so what was your point in referencing it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  7. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    And what do you take that quote to mean?
     
  8. txeagle

    txeagle

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  9. glockguy213

    glockguy213 NRA Life Member

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    My apologies, in PA, background checks go through the PA State Police, not the Feds. PSP charge $2.00 for the call and the dealers charge $3.00 for the paperwork.

    Bottom line is, I don't want guns getting into the hands of people who are disqualified from owning them. Period.
     
  10. Henry's Dad

    Henry's Dad woof, woof

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    How is this true? The FFL fills out the form, then files it away in his records for 20 years. The form is never sent to the government. The only time the FFL is required to show the form is if it is requested as part of an investigation.

    During the NICS phone call, no information is exchanged regarding the specific gun(s) being bought. The NICS call is only about the buyer's ability to buy a gun.

    I may be wrong about this, so please correct me if I am.

    If it is a de facto gun registration, having the most relevant data (make model and serial #) scatterd across the filing cabinets of thousands of FFLs hardly seems like the most efficient method.
     
  11. czsmithGT

    czsmithGT

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    It means that not even Jefferson would believe you could simply spout a quote from Jefferson and have it trump a Supreme Court decision regarding constitutionality based on the conditions existing today.

    At the time of Jefferson's quote slaves could not own guns, but in the world of today we thankfully no longer even have slaves. When Jefferson made his "freeman" draft of the Virginia constitution that wasn't even adopted in Virginia, less than 1% of all blacks were "freemen". Women were not "freemen" who had the right to vote. Times change.

    I am certainly not advocating any type of new laws or restrictions in allowing freemen to keep and bear arms today. But that does not mean if Jefferson thought individuals should be able to own cannons because the government owned cannons (which I think perhaps he did) that today individuals should be able to own nuclear weapons.

    I happen to trust the opinions of Scalia and Thomas more than your (or any other "freeman's") opinion of what they should decide regarding constitutionality. Some other Supreme Court justices, not so much, but then I don't have a choice in whether to follow the Supreme Court decisions I don't agree with because that is the way it works under our Constitution.
     
  12. JuneyBooney

    JuneyBooney

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    I have never met anyone with a table that was selling his own guns. I find them on the net. O really get tired of the media arguing things that had no part in crimes that recently happened. :upeyes:
     
  13. number1gun

    number1gun

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    I never said an individual should not be able to make an occasional sale to another person. What I am saying is if you are one of the fringe dealers that shows up to every show with new stock...you are a gun dealer and should abide by the rules AS A Gun dealer. It is simple..4473, background, etc. You have a duty to the public at large to make an effort to not transfer firearms to persons that do not meet the very small amount of criteria asked for. The fringe dealers are the 40% being talked about. I will never support you. So again for the slow people. If you make a regular income from the sale of firearms...you are a dealer and should be required to have an FFL and abide by the rules.
     
  14. Henry's Dad

    Henry's Dad woof, woof

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    Jefferson is hardly the absolutist you make him out to be. Since we're tossing around TJ quotes, let me add another:

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    -letter to John Colvin, Sept. 20, 1810

    In fairness, you can read that to mean its okay to skirt federal firearms laws, or I can read it to give the 2A some breathing space outside of your absolutist interpretation.

    Either way, TJ was hardly an absolutist. I seem to recall him skirting Congress entirely to make the Louisiana Purchase.
     
  15. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    We're not talking about trumping anything. We're talking about opinions. The gentleman we've been debating thinks all private sales need to go through FFLs. I, and many others, think the modern concept of prohibited classes grants the government new power it should not have via the legislative process and not the Constitutional one, while accomplishing little to nothing in terms of public safety, while denying citizens -- or as one of the early drafts of the 2A put it a portion of "the body of the people" their natural rights. I also doubt that the Jefferson foresaw a politicized court like we have today. Madison set forth a governmental structure to dissuade it.

    Kinda brings home the reason for owning a gun in the first place doesn't it?

    Is it reasonable to assume that even during Jefferson's time there were men among them whom might not be considered trustworthy enough to own a weapon that could shoot through a school house? (cannon) or lay waste to a large gathering of people? Yet with all the deliberation and rewriting they never included so much as a phrase or clause that suggested giving the government the power to determine whether certain people would be allowed to own a gun based on past history or mental fitness?

    All Scalia and Thomas wrote was that "although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings".

    -- doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement so much as a "we aren't touching this today". Why else make a point of mentioning that they did not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis of the full scope of the second amendment? I take that to mean they aren't addressing "Shall not be infringed". Of course I could be completely wrong.

    Good discussion. Didn't mean to slice and dice your post up. Just trying to respond on point.
     
  16. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    There shouldn't be any "FFL" or 4473.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  17. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    No one is talking about skirting federal firearms laws. Federal law does not require an FFL for a FTF private transaction. That's following the law.

    What he seems to be saying very clearly is that a citizen should follow the law until the law runs contrary to the founding principles, which would be consistent with many of his other writings.
     
  18. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    The information is obviously used to track guns involved in crime. So the tracking mechanism is in place.

    When an FFL closes shop, his records must be sent to the BATFE.

    Is it centralized yet? No. Hopefully it never will be. But there records are there.
     
  19. 427

    427

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    How do you know it's "new stock" and not another part of a large collection?

    Do you define "regular income" as someone who just sells at a gun show? How much is a "regular" income? Sometimes they don't sell anything.

    I know a number of local private individuals who buy, sell, trade at every gun show. A lot of them have been doing this for decades. Are they the fringe dealers as you say, or are just they doing their hobby?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  20. czsmithGT

    czsmithGT

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    I think there are a lot of posts indicating that some people believe private sales of firearms can result in the de facto skirting of Federal firearms laws. Whether that is the case and if so is it OK is what is being debated.