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Glock 29 kaboom

29K views 142 replies 37 participants last post by  Taterhead 
#1 · (Edited)
Kaboom happened today...kaboom part at the end of this important part of the story


hot ammo question
First, apologies as this relates to a 40 cal xdm. Why I am asking here is that it relates to some ammo Mike Willard made up for me before he passed, a scalding hot 165 gd at 1325 fps. What happened to me yesterday I have never seen or heard of before, so since this forum deals with issues of high speed and high pressure and all the surrounding issues, I come here. I have a g29 and am used to firing hot loads...but anyway...

Here's what happened. I was just going to shoot my xdm because I was bored, and it had been a while since I shot it, so I carried it outside with a few of Mike's rounds in it. Full mag.

I fired the first round, and enjoyed the feel. I looked down on the ground, and an unfired shell was on the ground. I shot a few more rounds, and went inside. The uncertainty of what just happened made me pause and think. So I loaded up the gun just like it was before, went back outside, and the exact same thing happened. I think the shell jumped out of the gun somehow....I don't know

Now I'm really perplexed. I fill the mag up with some 180 grain federal hst.....go back out, and viola....no problem, no issue.

So....I'm completely lost and perplexed. I think the issue was with the ammo...I do have a stronger recoil spring.

The xdm appears fine, fires normal ammo ok. Next weekend I'm going to shoot it more to try to figure out what is going on.

Any ideas?


part two
figured it out
Shot a little today...shot some regular 40 cal hst....no problem, smooth as silk.

Put a few rounds of hot Swamp Fox in....same as before except this time instead of the live round flying out of the gun intact....a stove pipe occurred, with a live round.

I was almost happy to see this, but I had to test some more.

Put regular ammo back in, smooth as silk. Swamp Fox...stove pipe with a live round.

If Mike were still alive we'd be in touch. But....I'll just use my regular ammo in the 40 and be happy. The Swamp Fox 40 ammo is hereby quarantined. I have no desire to mess with it anymore. As of this moment, it ain't broke.

kaboom part
My right hand is wounded and I am shaking as I type. My wife and I got the crap scared out of us. I say my right hand is wounded....fingers intact, but I am bruised up pretty bad. Most of us think about high speed loads etc....every now and then a dose of reality sets in...let this be the dose for all of us, not just for me.

I have a lone wolf conversion 10mm to 40 cal barrel, and I knew the Swamp Fox 40 cal ammo was no threat to the almighty Glock 10 mm, so I go out to shoot some of it up, to use it up and just shoot some. I shoot two rounds, hit my target, and decide to do a double tap. I am not sure where in the next part the crap hits the fan, but I pull the trigger and the gun explodes in my hand. I run inside and make sure all my parts are still there, I have my wife check just to be sure as my heart is pounding 7000 beats a minute. I go back outside and find that the magazine has blown out of the gun, and a small plastic piece on the right side of the gun has blown out as well, adjacent to the mag(somebody tell me what this is cause I need a new one, no patience at the moment, more important to give out the warning), there is a spent shell in the barrel, and a live round pops out of the gun. I have to move the slide back and forth to get the empty out of the chamber.

The magazine with the live rounds is in the trash, there was some melting. The Swamp Fox 40 cal ammo is in the trash, a promise I made my wife. My wonderful Glock 29 has a hole in the right side and is out of commission.

I am at a loss for words. My hurt hand is nothing....I can't believe what just happened, and I can't believe that as bad as this could have been, that I able to type out this warning. I saw the Ravens fan thing about a bad attitude being the only true disability. Dang it, I am ok....I AM OK!!!!And I am so grateful, and make no apologies for my gratitude.

But I have to look out for you, because I don't have all the answers to what just happened. I only hope and pray that someone wiser than I can sort this out, so that we don't have to live this again.

Apologies for no pics...best descriptions at the moment...explosion blew the mag out of the bottom, Swamp Fox 40 cal ammo, melting of the mag at the top, small plastic piece blown out on the right side, otherwise gun appears intact.

G29 has 21 lb recoil spring

I am, at the moment, consuming a strong beer.

cause there for a moment, I thought I was really....


deadandgone



ed
 
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#28 ·
This isn't the first time we have heard of a KB with a G29 and Swampfox ammo. The last time it happened, as a result Mike created a downloaded 200 grain load at 1190 specifically intended for the 29. He was of the opinion this phenomenon was specific to the 29 and 200 grain ammunition.

Obviously this was incorrect.

Deadandgone, I am glad you are for the most part okay. It could have been much worse.

I will be interested to hear what Shadow comes up with when he pulls those bullets apart.
 
#29 ·
Deadandgone my offer still stands about the ammo, I'd like to learn more! If you would like, you could send them to me and I would pull them and carefully document what is inside...I like doing pull-downs and understanding the dynamics that lead up to issues like you experienced. PM me if this would be of interest to further educate ourselves to what happened.

I'd even reimburse you the postage of a small flat rate mailer!
You do not want to be mailing ammo USPS, with it being a federal offense for both parties. You are stuck sending it UPS or FedEx w/ haz mat/orm-d charges.
 
#30 ·
You do not want to be mailing ammo USPS, with it being a federal offense for both parties. You are stuck sending it UPS or FedEx w/ haz mat/orm-d charges.
Last time I ordered ammo from a big store it came USPS no haz. Just reg mail.

I read the rules the other day and I did not see anything about loaded ammo. Only power and explosives. Not one word about ammo.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Off the USPS website, not sure how it will format... If anyone sends you ammo you are taking a big risk. Do your own search, I'm not making this stuff up. Empty brass and component bullets OK, powder and/or primers a BIG no-no.

Cartridges, flash 1.1G UN0049 II Prohibited

Cartridges, flash 1.3G UN0050 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank 1.1C UN0326 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank 1.2C UN0413 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank or Cartridges, small arms, blank 1.3C UN0327 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank or Cartridges, small arms, blank 1.4C UN0338 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank or Cartridges, small arms, blank 1.4S UN0014 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile 1.2C UN0328 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile or Cartridges, small arms 1.3C UN0417 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile or Cartridges, small arms 1.4C UN0339 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile or Cartridges, small arms 1.4S UN0012 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.1E UN0006 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.1F UN0005 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.2E UN0321 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.2F UN0007 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.4E UN0412 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.4F UN0348 II Prohibited

Cartridges, oil well 1.3C UN0277 II Prohibited

Cartridges, oil well 1.4C UN0278 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.2C UN0381 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.3C UN0275 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.4C UN0276 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.4S UN0323 II Prohibited

Cartridges, safety, blank, see Cartridges for weapons, blank (UN0014)

Cartridges, safety, see Cartridges for weapons, other than blank or Cartridges, power device (UN0323)

Cartridges, signal 1.3G UN0054 II Prohibited

Cartridges, signal 1.4G UN0312 II Prohibited

Cartridges, signal 1.4S UN0405 II Prohibited

Cartridges, small arms ORM–D Prohibited

Cartridges, sporting, see Cartridges for weapons, other than blank

Cartridges, starter, jet engine, see Cartridges, power device

Cases, cartridge, empty with primer 1.4S UN0055 II Prohibited

Cases, cartridges, empty with primer 1.4C UN0379 II Prohibited

Cases, combustible, empty, without primer 1.4C UN0446 II Prohibited



Cases, combustible, empty, without primer 1.3C UN0447 II Prohibited
 
#36 · (Edited)
If shipping ammo, UPS is the only way to go. USPS is a no-go. FedEx will do it with a HazMat agreement setup, so more of a hassle.

To ship UPS the box must be marked conspicously with "Cartridges Small Arms." Also, inside a large rectangle, you must put "ORM-D". It is pretty easily described on the UPS sight.

There is no hazmat for ammo. Also you will likely need to go directly to a UPS shipping center. The outlets and shipping stores typically will not accept ORM-D packages.
 
#38 ·
I called Glock on Shadow's advice. I explained that the gun is not stock, and that there was an explosion. I told them the whole truth because I want to know if the gun is still safe. I know the frame is toast, but I want them to look at the slide to see if there is any damage there. They said send it on, they will take a look at it, and they said a new frame would run around $100. I almost passed out....I figured a new frame would be much more than that. So it is on the way there, and in about two months I should have it back. By then this thread will be buried....but I promise to let everyone know how it all turns out.

Some bullets on the way to Shadow for him to examine. Honestly, at this point, nothing would surprise me. I would just say if you have any Swamp Fox ammo....be very, very careful.


My hand is healing nicely...still hurts but it is still there. When I think about how bad it could have been....

A couple of weeks from now I'll shoot some. Will I flinch? I wouldn't bet against it. Some dry fire exercises coming soon.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Deadandgone,

I'm sure you've seen the thread where Shadow and I (and others) disassemble some "SwampFox 200gr @ 1325fps" ammunition.

I actually did the pulling and measuring on two example rounds a member sent me. Well, one of the rounds had 9.4gr LS and the other had 10.0gr LS. THESE ROUNDS WERE FROM THE SAME BOX.

Shadow and I and others have both done our own workups to try and duplicate the numbers SF attained. I stopped my own workup at 9.4gr (as did Shadow IIRC)

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm glad you weren't hurt too badly and are getting your G29 back. That SF ammo was quite hot, bordering dangerous in that particular load. :cheers:

Nick
 
#40 · (Edited)
Deadandgones Swamp Fox ammo arrived today. HERE is what was inside!

Cartridgeis from Ammo Manufacture: SwampFox Ammo 165gr GDHP
BallisticsInformation: 40S&W (Too HOT)
Advertized MuzzleVelocity: 1325 fps
Advertized MuzzleEnergy: 643 ft. lbs
BrassMake/Headstamp: Star Line – Brass
BulletMake/Weight/Construction/Info;Length 0.5780”/Dia.0.400”: Speer Gold Dot 165 gr.JHP actual weight 165.6 grains (heavy crimp bullet ring 0.3900”)
C.O.A.L.:1.1225”
Primer:Nickel color
Case:Diameter 0.4215” Crimp Diameter 0.4220” Length 0.8445”
PowderDescription/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: LongShot 10.0 grains
***(2.2 gr over Hodgdon's listed data)
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:










In my non-professional opinion I feel that Swamp Fox pushed this loading too far. 2.2 grains in this smaller 40S&W casing. This led to extreme over pressures which resulted in the brass casing's failure. The over pressure of expanding hot gas blew the casing head out, which bled this high pressure jet of gas down into the magazine well. The frame was compromised before the magazine was ejected. Without having seen or observed the damaged gun or the damaged cartridges or other cartridges ion person, I might speculate that, it was possible the gas was forced into the next cartridge at the top of the magazine, which may have ignited that charge of powder as well, to further add to the damage experienced.

This was a tragic event so, I wish to thank Deadandgone for sharing his experiences with us here on GlockTalk and wish him a speedy recovery.

Those of you who have some of SwamFox's ammo, you may want to get with someone who is a handloader to get a better understanding of what you have for safety sake!
Mike Willard is no longer with us (R.I.P.) to make things right.

add data 02/07/2013
Here is the run down of all 35 SwampFox Ammo 40S&W cartridges loaded with Hodgdon's LongShot powder, as pulled-down from Deadandgone box. Once again we wish to thank him for sharing so we can learn for this incident!

13 cartridges @ 09.6 gr / 11 cartridges @ 09.4 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.8 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.9 gr and 2 cartridges @ 10.0 gr

10.0 gr
09.9 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
10.0 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.9 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr

All loads were checked on two scales, the loads at 09.9 grains were for my balance beam RCBS 5-10 Scale these would have shown 09.8 on the digital because it only shows even numbers in the tenths column...
 
#41 ·
Hodgdon's site list for the 40S&W 165 grain JHP as a max load of 7.8 grains of LongShot powder yielding 1185 fps with a pressure of 33,400 PSI
 
#44 ·
Good to hear nobody got seriously hurt, but +640 ft lbs from a .40 S&W is just crazy. With all due respect to Mike, but selling this kind of ammo is insane, what was he thinking? He made a hot 10mm out of a .40. Knowing that the Glock has had the most kabooms in .40 this was just a recipe for disaster. I'm surprised this hasn't happened more often. Anther lesson learned I guess, but this could have been avoided if Mike didn't went overboard with his ++++++P loads. You don't talk bad about people who are no longer among us, but the fact is that he endangered peoples lives with his dangerously loaded ammo.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Yikes!

I never even knew they offered such a load. I've worked with Longshot quite a bit in the .40 but 10.0gr for a 165gr is a bit warm obviously.

I have issue with the 7.8gr load listed by Hodgdon, but the 165gr Sierra JHP is a somewhat long JHP compared to the shorter 165gr Gold Dot. The main reason this data from Hodgdon is suspect is that the 180gr has a higher max charge (8.0gr) than does the 165gr...which is whack. But that Sierra JHP is almost as long as some 180gr JHPs. Looking at other loads, with a 165 Gold Dot somewhere around 9.0gr should be fairly close to what should be listed.

Due to the shorter OAL of the 165gr Gold Dot, I've worked up to 9.5gr in the .40, which out of the 6" G24 length KKM barrel averaged 1,485 fps/ 800+ ft-lbs. I stopped there since almost 1500 fps with a 165gr Gold Dot out of a .40 is plenty for me. However, would I want to shoot that from a stock barrel? I wouldn't without working it up in a stock barrel, but I prefer the better support of the KKM.
 
#46 ·
For an idea of what can be acheived safely I look at Buffalo Bore's #s, as they seem to load as hot as possible safely. Their .40 +P load is 155 @ 1300 out of a 5" barrel. Anybody claiming or getting 100fps more is doing something VERY wrong, and risking other people's health in the process.

Thanks for the pulldown Shadow. Did you pull several to check consistency?
 
#47 · (Edited)
FWIW ,
When I run the numbers in my Quickload program for the 40 SW-165gr GD and Longshot powder at 10.0gr at 1325 fps = 49,700 PSI. No wonder something blew up.:faint:
I think we might need to pay more attention to what we are shooting. A 165gr JHP in the 10MM at 1325 is medium high pressure how much more in the 40 SW.
Lets be safe out there men.


Sean
 
#48 ·
Here is the run down of all 35 SwampFox Ammo 40S&W cartridges loaded with Hodgdon's LongShot powder, as pulled-down from Deadandgone box. Once again we wish to thank him for sharing so we can learn for this incident!

13 cartridges @ 09.6 gr / 11 cartridges @ 09.4 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.8 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.9 gr and 2 cartridges @ 10.0 gr

10.0 gr
09.9 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
10.0 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.9 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr

All loads were checked on two scales, the loads at 09.9 grains were for my balance beam RCBS 5-10 Scale these would have shown 09.8 on the digital because it only shows even numbers in the tenths column...

UPDATED the previous post with this data as well...
 
#50 ·
The 9.4gr loads are BORDERLINE OK ,still over pressure but workable in a fully supported barrel.
His QC on powder measurements is sorely lacking. Kinda makes me wonder what brand powder measure he used.

Sean
It might be, but I don't wish to work to those levels in the 40S&W cartridges...

Did the Quickload program ever get data for the IMR800X powder? ??? LongShot is very simular by weight as 800X.:dunno:
 
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