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Gates: Some Benghazi critics have "cartoonish" view of military capability

Discussion in 'Political Issues' started by Flintlocker, May 12, 2013.

  1. I wouldn't be surprised at their skills. I've been assigned to an AFB and I've seen them on a deployment. They remain inside the wire because of the tasks they perform. They aren't trained to handle those types of tactical problems. They'd be set up for failure if they were committed to such an engagement.


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  2. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    That is correct but that is not the extent of their training.

    Training for operations outside "the wire" is less than a typical Army unit but early on in Vietnam the USAF learned well that they can't depend on the Army to interdict enemy forces outside "the wire".

    But apparently four operators were not enough. Neither would four operators backed by 40 USAF Security Forces be enough.

    What exactly would have been enough?

    Do you have "special" knowledge of the situation on the ground at the time?

    Seriously, when will you stop saying can't? What will it take?

    On top of that, we are assuming no regular Army units were available.

    There were C130's in Ramstein there are C17 assets available. Bet they would have been happy to give the Army a lift.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
     

    Last edited: May 16, 2013

  3. Series1811-

    There's a difference between a QRF launching in Afghanistan and having to respond to an incident where very little is known.

    In Somalia, we deliberately conducted a raid and as such, had the proper forces and C2 structure in place and when that started going awry, confusion set in. Now imagine a JOC miles and miles and miles away getting notification that something is going on on their AOR. They'd have a hell of a time figuring out what was happening. Hell, as an S3 in combat, it was difficult to know what was going on once a platoon came into contact-- we were two levels of command removed. Why is it hard? Firefights are very confusing. People reporting are trying to make sense of what they are dealing with and even they change their information from one radio transmission to their next transmission. It's the reality of it and why we've coined the phrase "Fog of War".

    For the record, this whole thing has been handled horribly. But it doesn't negate the fact that the combatant command HQs was seriously challenged making sense of it and therefore it's incredibly difficult to make sound decisions or recommendations. Now add the complexity of trying to coordinate a response with incomplete info. Hence, Sec Gates' comment.


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  4. Because a unit did something in Vietnam means they are still proficient? Things change over 40 years.

    I've already said it. Unfortunately, there was nothing that could have been done to prevent their deaths once the rifle range opened. What failed to the left of that line is what I'd be more concerned about.


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  5. series1811

    series1811 Enforcerator. CLM

    You know, I've talked to several guys (Kyle Lamb, Mike Durant, Danny McNight), plus numerous of the 75th guys when I was at Benning training with them in 1994), that were in Somalia, and part of that operation (and worked in the same office with two of them for several years, a SF Sgt. attached to Garrison's staff, and a soldier in the 10th who was on the rescue convoy), and I haven't met a one of them who thinks that operation went horribly wrong, or that they even lost the fight. I sure haven't met one who thought what they did was futile or stupid, or not the correct response to fellow Americans in trouble (in fact the soldier who was on the rescue convoy with the 10th told me he was never as scared in his whole life as when he found out they were going into the battle, but he was more afraid he wouldn't be picked to go).
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2013
  6. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    I guess there is a different breed of man in charge now.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
     
  7. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    If they've forgotten those lessons, relearning them will be expensive.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
     
  8. Series1811-

    My next door neighbor at Campbell was a PSG in the Ranger Company (Steele was the commander). He freely admitted things went horribly wrong and that they became complacent. Every raid had been quick. That's why they didn't have batteries for NVGs, little to no water, and not enough ammo. There are plenty of AARs that objectively point it out.

    Now when it came time to fight, they did what they do best.


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  9. By the way, I'm not trying to bash the valiant actions those guys took. I'm using it as an example of how even with many of the C2 systems in place and the flash to bang for leadership to make a decision was incredibly short, combat situations become incredibly difficult
    and confusing even for our very best trained forces. Now imagine a Combatant Commander who receives
    An "Oh Sh!t" call out of nowhere.


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  10. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Liberal Bane

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    You seem to forget which bull**** Comrade Zero version of the story you are trying to defend.

    Comrade Zero didn't even bother to email the peaceful Muslims a picture of his No-Bell Pryze. If he had, perhaps they would have realized they can't attack us anymore since his No-Bell Pryze was awarded for all the peace he brought to the world.
     
  11. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Liberal Bane

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    I wonder what the world would be like if Presley O'Bannon had Comrade Zero as his CinC?

    The Marine Corps Hymn lyric: '...to the shores of Virginia Beach...' just doesn't have a ring to it.

    :upeyes:
     
  12. SCmasterblaster

    SCmasterblaster Millennium Member

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    DonGlock26 - keep up the good work! There are plenty of liberal targets, even here in GT.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2013
  13. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

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    Not sure either, too much noise, not enough news.

    And also anything they release its tainted by CYA anyway...

    I'm inclined to believe Gates, he was appointed by Bush, unlikely to be carrying water for Obama, no longer in the admin, so job its not at stake, was in a position to know real life capabilities/limitations involved. Finding it hard to dismiss his opinion.

    Randy

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    Last edited: May 16, 2013
  14. SCmasterblaster

    SCmasterblaster Millennium Member

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    They may have made a difference.
     
  15. countrygun

    countrygun

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    Did you miss this part ?


    I'll pull out the salient point and highlight it for you,

    "BTW- I watched the Gates interview on CBS. He started off by saying that he only knows what he read in the paper"

    That would be the information the Administration spoon fed the pare and they regurgitated and then he regurgitated .

    Yah, hang your hat on that opinion.
     
  16. Flintlocker

    Flintlocker

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    Or it could have been Black Hawk Down II.

    It really doesn't matter what the administration does or says. You guys would find fault with something and your Obamadrama would continue unabated.
     
  17. countrygun

    countrygun

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. I'm not defending any member of the administration. For me, the problems are all "left of the line". What all led up to that tragic event? Once it occurred, it was too late. I am coming at this from 20+ years of combat arms experience and 3 combat tours. I think I understand this stuff better than the average person. I have lived life when the rifle range is open in both directions. So I don't need a sermon from anyone about not leaving Soldiers, Americans, etc. behind. I understand those principles with crystal clear clarity.

    I'll put a large ground unit availability into perspective. Let's pretend there was a BCT in Germany that was pulling the GRF OCONUS mission (there wasn't one). Lets also assume they were alerted to deploy within minutes of this happening. GRF units are on a deployment sequence that extends beyond a day (I'm not going to post specifics). That means the first units would have been wheels up from Germany well after a day from being notified. now they have to fly to Libya, land, assemble, and deploy. You honestly think they were going to make a difference? This things was over.

    Let's pretend a Ranger unit from the east coast was alerted to deploy from the states. They are on a much shorter deployment sequence but they are not wheels up until much later than you probably think. You think they were going to make a difference? At best, they are stepping off a plane in Libya after a full 24 hours has passed from notification to deploy. Again, they have to assemble and then move. You think they were going to make a difference? The event was over.

    You think 4 SF guys were going to make a difference? If reality was suspended and no friction occurred, they might have had a chance to arrive while hostilities were occurring. However, they would have been severely lacking equipment and ammunition considering why they were in the country to begin with. I suspect if a commander was given the option to deploy them, they quickly determined that based off of information available, those 4 great Americans would not influence the situation and would in all likelihood become casualties themselves.

    So again, when Sec Gates said people have a cartoonish view of military capabilities, he is right. I don't care if 'ole Saint Nock and his 12 Reindeer are President. It doesn't change the fact that we can't beam units into combat. Once it went south in Libya, those guys were fvcked. That's the simple, ugly reality of it.

    So I'll say it again. I think things that occurred left of the line should be looked at and not what the woulda, coulda, shouda fantasy military capabilities that people seem to think we have.
     
  19. Happyguy,

    Look at my post regarding deployment timelines. That's the reality of it. Guys aren't hanging around the airfield. I've been in the 82nd and 101st-- I know more about deployment sequence timelines than I could have ever wished for after being in those units.

    I don't know what you did as a USAF Security Forces Airman. All I'm telling you is that either their mission set changed over the years or the USAF has atrophied their skills. There isn't a situation that would have occurred outside the wire in Iraq or Afghanistan that we would have launched USAF Security Forces to handle. They would have been wildly unprepared. They arent tracking battlespace movements, threat nriefs specific to the terrain, etc. If you want my honest opinion, the Red Horse (Engineers) guys know how to fight better than they do because they operate outside the wire. The Sec Force bubbas are focused only on the airfield. They don't have the responsibility to defend Bagram Airbase or a Khandahar Airfield. They check flight line credentials. There are separate units assigned to defend the base and there is a ground unit responsible for the battle space the airfields are in.

    That said, I'm not saying they aren't great Americans or they can't be trained to conduct other mission sets. But as of today, I can't think of a commander who would entertain their employment into a situation like Libya. We might have had Jessica Lynch Part II.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2013
  20. countrygun

    countrygun

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    In the law Judges instruct jurors that ,if any part of a a witness's testimony is proven to be a lie then anything that witness says may also be treated as false.

    It makes it real hard on folks trying to be witnesses backing up this Administrations actions.