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G38 reloads FTGIB. (whine)

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by ADK_40GLKr, Nov 23, 2012.


  1. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    Lee single stage press, 45GAP, 200 gn hp

    Thought I'd made up a good batch but had a lot of trouble @ IDPA practice with Failure to Go Into Battery, and failure to extract.

    I figure I had tried to remove the decapper one time and raised the whold die, instead. I went back to the directions, raised the locking ring, and screwed the die all the way down to meet the shell holder, then screwed the locking ring back down.

    Took the caliper to the brass and it seems OK (<0.450). It also drops into the barrel and rattles just a bit. I figure that's better than too tight.

    Will also boost the load by 0.3 gr, as recoil was lighter than WWB, and a lot of successfully ejected brass was bouncing off my hat. (from 7.3 to 7.6 gn HS6)

    Am I on the right track, or barking up the wrong sapling here?

    (Practical suggestions, please? I've heard all the DISparagement for GAP, Lee, and single stage I care to, and you really don't want to be redundant, do you?)
     

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    #1 ADK_40GLKr, Nov 23, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  2. WiskyT

    WiskyT
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    It sounds like it's more failure to EJECT than failure to EXTRACT. That coupled with the other info tells me your charge is too light.
     

  3. PsychoKnight

    PsychoKnight
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    Yup, if the charge is too light, even if the case fully ejects, the slide doesn't move rearward the full travel length to then gain forward momentum before making contact with the next magazine round w/ suffic force to push it off the grip of the lips, up the ramp, and also to lock up the barrel.
     
    #3 PsychoKnight, Nov 23, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  4. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    OK so boosting charge by 0.3 gn will be a good thing. That'll put me up to 7.6 and maximum is 8.0.

    I think diameter COULD be a problem also, because, even slingshotting the slide , it has failed to go into battery on some rounds, so....

    ...tightening down the resizer shouldn't hurt anything, should it?
     
  5. zippyhuntin

    zippyhuntin
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    Are you making sure to take the bell out after seating?
     
  6. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    If you mean what I call the "Flare", doesn't the crimp in the seating die take care of that?

    How would you adjust the seating die, to tighten the crimp?

    I have 3 dies:
    1. Decapper/sizer (and I usually insert primer on downstroke)
    2. Flaring/Charging die
    3. Seating/crimping. (No Factory crimp die which I shouldn't need for pistol, right?)
     
    #6 ADK_40GLKr, Nov 23, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  7. unclebob

    unclebob
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    Raise the ram run the sizer die down until it makes contact with ram. Insert a case run the ram up and tighten the lock ring. Some people even turn it in ¼ to ½ turn more just make sure it cams over with a case installed.
    Your bullet seating. Raise the die so that it will not crimp the round and run the seating stem up so it does not make contact with the bullet. Put a case and bullet in the die and run the stem down to the bullet lower the ram and screw in the stem some. Seat the put and check the COL keep doing this until you get the COL that you want. Run the stem back up then screw the die down with the round in the die. Keep doing this until you get the crimp you want. You just want to remove the bell on the case. Once you have the crimp. Lock the lock ring with a round in the case then run the seating steam down until it makes contact with the bullet.
     
  8. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    Thanks, Uncle Bob!

    I put your instrux in BULLET format (sorry, bad pun) and I could understand 'em better. I think that'll work for me.

    Your bullet seating.

    -Raise the die so that it will not crimp the round
    -run the seating stem up so it does not make contact with the bullet.
    -Put a case and bullet in the die and run the stem down to the bullet
    -lower the ram and
    -screw in the stem some.
    -Seat the (bullet?) and
    -check the COL

    -keep doing this until you get the COL that you want.

    -Run the stem back up then screw the die down with the round in the die.
    -Keep doing this until you get the crimp you want.

    -You just want to remove the bell on the case.

    -Once you have the crimp, Lock the lock ring with a round in the case then
    -run the seating stem down until it makes contact with the bullet.
     
    #8 ADK_40GLKr, Nov 23, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  9. unclebob

    unclebob
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    Sorry I was in a hurry when I posted that.
    Also you may want to try 185gr bullets in the gap. You just might like them better?
     
  10. F106 Fan

    F106 Fan
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    The adjustment of the sizing die is not a negotiable setting. It needs to make contact with the shell holder when it is actually sizing a case. The force of sizing a case causes a slight deflection in the press which might hold the die a few thousandths above the shell holder. The die needs to contact the shell holder.

    The procedure of locking down the ring with a shell in the die just helps with alignment.

    You will eventually tire of trying to make those adjustments on the seating die. It is a PITA! That's the reason the taper crimp die was invented. Well, there's two reasons: First was to separate seating from crimping to preserve the bullet but second, the taper in a taper crimp die is very likely to be more gentle and easier to adjust than a combination die. This makes it a lot easier to adjust and more consistent over slight variations in case length. An RCBS taper crimp die for .45 GAP is $20 at Midway USA. Lee claims there is no advantage to a separate crimp die because their seating die has the same function but that overlooks the PITA of adjusting the combination die.

    If you don't have a case gauge to verify your process, you should have. Sure, you can use the chamber but it's often a PITA to go get the gun, unload and disassemble it, use the barrel for a while, reassemble and reload. A case gauge just sits on the bench, right next to the press. Dillon has the case gauge for $15.

    Richard
     
  11. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    No sweat, Uncle. My learning style: I can follow a map a lot easier than verbal "turn at the old sycamore" type instructions. Putting it in bullet form helped me understand it better. But you conveyed your message.

    So far, all my LGS has is 200 & 230.

    What's your recipe for 185?

    Thanks again!
     
  12. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    Thanks 106, I tightened it down but will make sure it's all the way before next reloading session.
     
  13. ImpeachObama

    ImpeachObama
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    200 gr bullet will run just fine in the GAP. What powder are you using? I missed that somewhere. Also, did you drop your rounds into the barrel's chamber to check fitment?
     
  14. PsychoKnight

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    Something majorly wrong with the outer dimensions of your finished round if you rack the slide, let it snap forward and the action won't even lock up.

    After seating, in my opinion, the wall of the case mouth should be absolutely straight. To check, I press the side of a loaded round against a steel rule or the rail of a caliper to see if the portion of brass which contacts the bullet is completely flush with each other. Neither a bell, nor inward crimp is desirable. Inward crimp is common on revolver rounds, but on auto pistols that edge of the brass is the only thing that controls the depth of how far the round goes into the barrel chamber. Bell: it will catch and drag on the mag, ramp and throat. Overly crimped: you get mushy headspacing (inconsistence stop point for the cartridge).

    Yes, most of us incorporate a separate seating and taper crimping process (separate dies).
     
    #14 PsychoKnight, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  15. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    First made sure the sizer went all the way down.
    Then installed my Lee Perfect Powder Measure device (or whatever they call it...)
    .... It pretty consistently cranked out 7.7 grains of HS6. The bullets are those 200 gn "shouldered" slugs which I seated to an OAL of 1.105. Spec was 1.08 but I thought that format might seat deeper so gave it a little extra space. (that would only reduce pressure, and I just added .4 gn)

    I think I finally got the crimp in the right place. I drilled a 5/8" hole in my bench and dropped the barrel into it. Then every round that came out of the press got plopped into the chamber before going into the "finished" tray. At first I had some difficulty removing the rounds from the barrel, until I lowered the crimper about another 1/4 turn. I started saving the rounds when I could "extract" 'em w/ my fingernail.

    I had 20 rounds left after pulling the tight ones. Think I'll run up to the range tomorrow AM and see if this batch works.

    And will compare these with the G17 range ammo.
     
    #15 ADK_40GLKr, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  16. F106 Fan

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    Your rounds headspace on the case mouth which means that the edge of the casemouth sits on a little ridge in the chamber. You should be able to easily rotate a cartridge when it is in the chamber because, if everything is right, you have 0.001" of clearance on the diameter and that little casemouth rim doesn't cause much friction.

    Richard
     
  17. F106 Fan

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    Your crimp should not be so tight that the casemouth indents the bullet. This is expecially important for plated bullets. OTOH, the casemouth should be fully closed up on the bullet.

    So, set the crimp until the long edge of the case is a straight line, particularly in the area of the casemouth. Pull a couple to make sure you aren't indenting the bullet. For a jacketed bullet, it might be ok if there is a slight mark from the casemouth.

    Richard
     
  18. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    SHOULDERED bullets don't feed in a semi! :faint:

    Most of 'em caught on the feed ramp. edges of chamber left dents in shoulder of the plating. Got about 80 I'll trade to a friend who loads for pistol, and a bag of 100 I'll take back to LGS and swap for RN or HP.

    Another lesson learned. "Find what works and buy bulk."
     
  19. F106 Fan

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    Not exactly true! Perhaps it would be better stated as "SHOULDERED bullets don't feed in YOUR semi". :whistling:

    I think it is going to be very gun dependent.

    For my G21SF (I know, different gun), I routinely shoot S&S Casting 200 gr LSWC bullets:
    [​IMG]

    These function in both the stock barrel and my aftermarket KKM barrel. Of course, they also function in my Colts and Sig.

    The seating depth is such that there is a slight ring of exposed lead at the case mouth. It's hard to measure but somewhere around 0.030" seems like a good guess. This lead is slippery and that helps the extracting casehead ride up over the round in the magazine.

    OTOH, I know absolutely nothing about .45 GAP and the G38. It may very well be true that bullets with shoulders won't work. Or it may be a matter of OAL and where the shoulder is located.

    FWIW, the S&S Casting 230 gr LRN also has a shoulder:
    [​IMG]

    Richard
     
  20. ADK_40GLKr

    ADK_40GLKr
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    Guess I should have called 'em Semi Wadcutters. Anyway the chamber left some gouges in the copper plating of the shoulder. Here's a few I had left.

    Gotta increase resolution, but "you get the picture".
     
    #20 ADK_40GLKr, Nov 27, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012