close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

FBI nay be switching back to 9MM

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by GLK19, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. GLK19

    GLK19

    Joined:
    May 15, 2000
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Long Island , NY
    My friends at the Bureau who keep up on firearms and tactics issues affecting them told me that the agency is seriously considering going back to 9mm (but staying with Glock)

    The reasoning they supposedly have are:

    1. The difference (in their opinion now) in terminal ballistics between .40 and 9mm is minimal.

    2. The 9mm is more shooter friendly (read: for females)

    3. The 9mm is a lower pressure round which they feel may alleviate some recurring maintenance/breakage issues they have been seeing.

    Its very interesting but to be honest a lot of people right here and other forums who take self defense seriously have been stating this for a while. I don't have a problem with the 40 however I don't really care for the muzzle flip inherit with this round as I like to get as many rounds on target as quickly as I can.

    I tell a lot of people who ask me, the following: get the biggest round in the most reliable gun you can become proficient in and train, train, train.

    9MM is a very good defensive round
     
  2. 03scgt

    03scgt

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    753
    Likes Received:
    44
    Location:
    South Florida
    Really its a smart decision all around.more shooter friendly,cheaper,easier on parts and just as capable of stopping someone as any other round.

    Its all up to the shooter to place the shots where they count,you do your job and the bullet will surely do its.
     

  3. clarkz71

    clarkz71

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    South Florida
    I have no problem with the 9mm, but I like the .40 too.

    So I bought both.
     
  4. series1811

    series1811 Enforcerator. CLM

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2003
    Messages:
    11,385
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Retired, but not expired.
    I've already switched back to 9mm. :supergrin:
     
  5. barth

    barth six barrels

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    6,850
    Likes Received:
    900
    Location:
    The Free Zone
    With modern ammunition - 9mm is proving to be a viable service caliber.
    I would not be surprised to see more LE migrate to 9mm going forward.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  6. fastbolt

    fastbolt

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Messages:
    12,641
    Likes Received:
    3,835
    Location:
    CA Central Coast
    Wouldn't surprise me if they decide to change back to all agents using 9mm. They do have some folks still using 9mm. (Remember their disparate impact suit?)

    I remember when my former agency changed over from general issue use of 9mm to general issue of both .40 S&W and .45 ACP. (Some limited numbers of single stack 9's remained in-service, for those small numbers of shooters with smaller hands and more sensitivity to felt recoil, and some more were ordered.)

    Now, it appears that when new guns are ordered, issued users will be given a choice of 9, .40 or .45, and they can also once again carry personally-owned weapons chambered in any of those approved 3 calibers (from an approved list of 3 of the major gun companies).

    I suspect we'll see more 9's being carried, although there's always going to be the folks who will favor .45 ACP. So far, the reasoning I've heard offered for returning to 9mm is similar to that expressed elsewhere. Specifically, that the 9's terminal ballistics (using any of the premium-type hollowpoints) has demonstrated an acceptable level of performance, and that felt recoil levels & overall controllability are going to be more favorable to a wider range of users.

    While I carried both .40 & .45 issued weapons prior to my retirement, I'd have been perfectly content to have continued carrying my last issued 6906 until the end of my career.

    I've been a longtime owner & user of .45 pistols, and acclimated myself to the .40 starting back in 2000, but I still own and use a fair number of 9's.

    That's certainly different than when I was a young cop, and thought the only semiauto pistol worth carrying was a .45 ACP. :tongueout:

    It's been described by different gun companies over the years that 9mm is easier on guns than .45, and .40 is harder on guns than both 9 & .45 ... with .357 sometimes being described as being harder on guns than any of the rest.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2013
  7. WayneJessie

    WayneJessie

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,667
    Likes Received:
    1,960
    Recurring maintenance issues/breaking? Can you expand on that?
     
  8. Buki192327

    Buki192327

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    5,579
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    S W Ohio, blowin in the wind
    I was talking with a retired Dayton, OH officer a couple of days ago. He told me the Dayton PD, is going away from the .40SW. They are going back to the .45ACP.

    The officers are claiming they can't get a 2nd shot off, accurately and fast enough, with the .40SW.
     
  9. dkf

    dkf

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,517
    Likes Received:
    184
    Std pressure 9mm max is 35k psi, 9mm +P max is 38,500psi. The 9mm +P+ is even higher. Max pressure for .40sw is 35k psi.

    Don't sound like they keep up with things very well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  10. oldman11

    oldman11

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    2,443
    Location:
    Texas
    Maybe someone should remind the FBI about the shootout in Florida some years back when they were using 9mm. If I remember correctly they lost 3 or 4 agents and didn't take 1 bad guy down. They were using cars for barricades and the 9's won't go through car doors. That's when they swore of 9's. But I guess time cures all wounds.
     
  11. Catshooter

    Catshooter

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2000
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    64
    Location:
    South East South Dakota
    It's the FBI. You can't expect much.


    Cat
     
  12. donmor53

    donmor53

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    1
    I would not feel...and have not felt...the least bit undergunned carrying a quality 9mm with some of the modern self defense ammunition loads.

    Too many times I have carried my 3913TSW with a spare mag when clothing required of just plain comfort won out.

    Doing such...I feared no evil. :supergrin:
     
  13. JBP55

    JBP55

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    9,669
    Likes Received:
    262
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Louisiana State Police issues a G22 (G35 for SWAT) with the option of carrying a G17 as many other local Agencies do. I was told recently that LSP is going all 9mm.
     
  14. WayneJessie

    WayneJessie

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,667
    Likes Received:
    1,960
    It's just a fact that those types of shootings have the FBI carrying rifle-power with them so hanguns will not be in play to the extent they were then. Plus, they have more than enough drones in the air to deal with any citizen whether he be a real threat or not. This ain't the same America it was back when that shooting took place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  15. D.S.Brown

    D.S.Brown Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 1999
    Messages:
    790
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North Texas
    Two agents were killed, the rest shot up pretty badly. My understanding was the "offending" bullet was Winchester Silver Tips in 115 grain. Supposedly not enough penetration, and thus the initial issuing of the S&W 1006 in 10mm, that not all agents could shoot well. It was a big gun! This lead to the downloading of the 10mm to the .40 S&W.

    A couple of things. The Illinois State Police had up until a few years ago, been using 9mm since the late 60's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 115 grain 9mm +P+ considered the traditional load of this agency. I'm sure they've put down a significant number of bad guys with this round. NYC Transit police were using 124 grain Gold Dots in the Mid 90's with effectiveness, and likely one of the reasons that when they got swallowed up by NYPD, the latter would ultimately choose the same load to run through their guns.

    There are easily people WAAAAY more qualified to discuss ballistics and bullets with authority than myself. My understanding is that bullet technology has improved tremendously over the last 25 years. For instance my load of choice presently is the 147 grain Gold Dots. Back in 1990 when I first picked up a Sig P226 the "load"I used was the 147 grain Federal Hydra-Shoks. The difference between now and then is that in '90 those Hydra-Shoks were meant to be fired from suppressed MP-5 submachine guns. Out of the P226 I might have gotten good penetration, but expansion was likely to be iffy at best. Whereas today with my Gold Dots, and I expect any quality 147 grain load made today will likely expand reliably.

    I highly doubt anyone carrying a 9mm is undergunned.

    Best,

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  16. Roering

    Roering Sorting nuts

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,241
    Likes Received:
    151
    Location:
    Costa Mesa
    I hope they do.

    More .40 for me!:cool:
     
  17. donmor53

    donmor53

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    1

    I had a DEA friend that used the Hydra-Shocks by the caseload because as you said...they fed well in his MP5. He then swithed over to the AR platform as an entry wesapon. Naturally...being his friend...during our shooting sessions...I acquired quite a bit of his "surplus" 9mm.

    Hydra-Shocks in 9mm are still hard to beat (notice I said "hard"...not conclusively) for general service and realiability of function in a 9mm.
     
  18. oldman11

    oldman11

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    2,443
    Location:
    Texas
    Actually one of them was shooting a .357 magnum and the other one was shooting a mini-14.
     
  19. MJB

    MJB

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2008
    Messages:
    787
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Space Coast FL
    Oh great now 9mm will be even more scarce. :upeyes:


    :rofl:
     
  20. Glock 23 Nutter

    Glock 23 Nutter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,929
    Likes Received:
    403
    The 9mm/147 gr. HST is a great round, but it is not a .40/180 gr. HST.

    9mm does not expand as reliably as larger calibers. (although the HST comes close)

    This reeks of "no agents/troopers left behind".

    The reality of common ammo in a firefight is a plus. That, along w/ a few extra rounds, along w/ a little better marksmanship from the "weak-sisters" (of both genders) might tip it.

    But ammo selection would be critical.




    Nutter