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Fastest incapacitation 10mm or 45

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by CDW4ME, Dec 26, 2011.

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  1. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME

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    Two loads with nearly the same recoil:
    Hornady 155 XTP 10mm or Winchester Ranger T 230 45.
    Same platform Glock 29 SF or 30 SF, keeping this simple. :whistling:

    Felt recoil as calculated by power factor (PF) is nearly the same.

    Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE / PF 198 (.88 momentum)
    Ranger T 230 @ 874 fps / 390# KE / PF 201 (.89 momentum)

    Yes, both would work just great for SD, but...

    Which load has the greatest incapacitation potential against a violent, armed, drugged...ect... human attacker, assuming equal shot placement?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  2. eracer

    eracer Where's my EBT?

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    I don't want to get shot anywhere vital with either one.
     


  3. xtremetj

    xtremetj

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    Subscribing :whistling:

    To the OP, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I'd like to know how you calculate the PF or is there a website that does it for you?
     
  4. BigCity

    BigCity

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    I always though shot placement for incapacitation.
     
  5. OctoberRust

    OctoberRust Anti-Federalist

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    I don't want to get shot with a BB gun, doesn't mean I'd use it in self defense. :upeyes:
     
  6. eracer

    eracer Where's my EBT?

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    So you wouldn't use a .45 ACP for self defense? I'm trying to understand your response. The thread is about .45 vs. 10mm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  7. OctoberRust

    OctoberRust Anti-Federalist

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    He's asking WHICH is best. You gave him a blanket/generic statement of "oh I wouldn't want to get shot by either". Answer what one you think is more effective at what he asked. No one WANTS to get shot by either, that is stating the obvious, he asked which is the QUICKEST to incap someone.


    If all variables were the same and it was a frontal chest shot, I think I'd go with a medium+fast 10mm projectile.
     
  8. eracer

    eracer Where's my EBT?

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    It's a fool's errand. If you shoot someone center mass with a .45ACP, the bullet will likely do enough damage to incapacitate them very quickly.

    If you shoot someone center mass with a 10mm, the bullet will likely do enough damage to incapacitate them very quickly.

    Can you quantify 'very quickly?' In one case, 'very quickly' might be faster for the .45 ACP. In another case, it might be the 10mm. Are they incapacitated by blood loss? CNS hit? Either caliber is fully capable of delivering more than enough energy, and making a big enough hole, to incapacitate in either way.

    I would not want to get shot by either gun in a vital area. Considering a BB from a kid's gun probably wouldn't break the dermis, must less the pericardium, I think it's a bit foolish to compare it to those two calibers.

    I stand by my response.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  9. Redstate

    Redstate

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    I don't know the significance of power factor other than in USPSA competition. Nevertheless, power factor (PF) is calculated by multiplying velocity by bullet weight and then dividing by 1000. For example, in the OP's post, he has a bullet wieght of 230 grs. He has a velocity of 874 fps. Multiply the two and you get 201,020. Divide by 1,000 and you get a PF of 201.02, rounded to 201.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  10. Either one is fine for self defense.
    The trick is choosing one and then becoming proficient enough to place that shot where it needs to go.
    There are too many variables in the real world to say this round is better than that round.
    A 300 win mag is better than both pistol rounds combined but I doubt you can carry a pistol that shoots it.
    Pick one that you like and live with it.
     
  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Taking SecDen into consideration, a better comparison would be the 185gr+P in 45acp vs the 10mm/155gr. The problem w/ a155gr 10mm that fast is it's likely to come apart before giving the penetration need for the worst case scenario; big BG, shot though a forearm or shoulder.:dunno: FWIW, PF & recoil only have a vague comparison. You can manipulate PF but not so easily recoil.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  12. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME

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    Redstate posted it.

     
  13. dpadams6

    dpadams6

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    Actually, the 155 hornady 10mm is designed not to come apart. Penetration, i assume, would be more than adequate. Sometimes too much with the hornady xtp's...
     
  14. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    Energy vs. permanent wound cavity size, take your pick. I prefer energy (as long as it's significantly more energy) as I really think there is something to shock value when you get above 500 ft lbs of energy. Yes a bigger hole may bleed out slightly faster but that won't help you for several minutes.

    All that said, you have better and more choices with 45 ammo, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  15. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    You do realize the stated velocity for the 10mm load being discussed is only approx 70fps faster than a 155gr .40 S&W load (such as the Winchester STHP & the Speer GDHP), right?

    Take into consideration the potential for +/- velocity deviations and you're pretty much really trying to compare a lightweight 155gr .40 load to a heavy standard pressure .45 load.

    Also, you can't really 'assume equal shot placement' unless you've invested a reasonable amount of time in getting some training to shoot both accurately & effectively, as well as investing the time & money in sufficiently frequent practice to maintain those hard-earned skills.

    I'd spend more time developing and working on skillset & mindset than wondering which specific caliber/bullet design/load may reduce the importance of user skill, knowledge, experience & judgment.

    If I were just worried about sheer brute FPE & MV, I'd go back to carrying one of my .44 Magnums loaded with lightweight (for caliber), fast loads ... but I got over that many years ago. Nowadays I carry various calibers, bullet weights, loads and bullet designs ... 9, .40, .45, .38 Spl & .357 Magnum ... and worry more about the shooter skills than the rounds.

    If I had to choose between what's been listed, I'd go with the standard pressure RA45T 230gr load. Why? Because I've shot a lot of it over the years and have confirmed it feeds and cycles well in my assorted .45's. If I wanted something "hotter" than that, I'd break out the RA45TP 230gr +P loads (current generation of T-Series bullet), which I have on hand because it was an issued load for a short while when they couldn't get any of the standard pressure load shipped to us. I rather prefer the recoil management & controllability of then standard pressure load, though, given my druthers.

    On the other hand, more often than not I'm satisfied carrying one or another .40 pistol (instead of one of my larger .45's), usually loaded with a current generation of the 180gr RA40T T-Series or the 180gr Rem GS (non-bonded). I tend to be thinking more about the front sight, grip and trigger press each time I shoot for training, practice or quals instead of which specific load is in the gun at that time. Ditto when carrying.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  16. unit1069

    unit1069

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    Shot placement is everything, but I'd recommend a duty caliber weapon for successful self-defense.

    A near miss of a vital organ or prime artery with a large caliber handgun fails against a smaller caliber that is perfectly placed.

    The question you pose leaves no question that either caliber/cartridge would incapacitate an aggressor with the right shot placement.

    That said, I've read that even a perfect heart shot leave an aggressor about 15 seconds of consciousness to inflict deadly consequences. A CNS shot is the only instant incapacitation scenario I've read, and again caliber/cartridge is negligible in these cases.

    A perfect shot is what it is; anything less leaves too many variables to yield a definitive answer.
     
  17. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Not sure where yoiu get that, the XTP is NOT bonded, therfore it can & will come apart, depending on impact vel & what ever it hits. SecDen puts the 155/40 to be a pretty shallow penetrator like a 185gr/45; 138 v 130. Either will hit hard, penetrate about the same & in identical guns the recoil will be sim.:dunno:
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  18. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME

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    The velocity I stated is an actual chronographed average.

    The Glock 29SF would be carried in the same manner as my G27 either appendix IWB or Smartcarry, so I'll give chrono data for that pistol.
    G27 Speer GD 155 gr. @ 1,134 fps / 442# KE
    G27 Win. Silvertip 155 gr. @ 1,090 fps / 409# KE

    The 10mm loading I specified is over 20% more powerful than either of those.

    I'm attempting to compare a "standard" 10mm load to a "standard" 45, one of the better 45 loads IMO.

    The 185 Remington JHP wouldn't fare as well as the hotter Ranger T.
    Remington 185 JHP @ 918 fps / 346# KE


    I shot the 10mm Hornady 155 XTP into water, it held together and made an approximate .68 mushroom, fourth plastic gallon milk jug; that's not shallow penetration.

    Point of thread: incapacitation advantage going to well designed slightly larger .45 bullet with 390# KE, or slightly smaller well designed .40 bullet packing 560# ? (an additional 175# KE)

    The Ranger T will have a larger recovered diameter at the start and finish, but is that better than 30% more KE when momentum is equivalent?
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Using your bullet weight/velocity & FPE criteria for the 10/155 listed, would you feel the venerable .357 Magnum loaded with 158gr JHP's is something that interests you? Not all that different from the 10mm load you're using as an example. There are considered to be some 'better loads' out there in the medium bore magnum revolver, though.

    Of course, the 158gr .357 Magnum loading was considered a 'standard' for many years, until lighter loads developing more velocity & FPE were introduced for LE/defensive purpose.

    Are you looking to justify a personal preference for a load which satisfies your desire for more velocity in a mid-range caliber? Suit yourself. It's not like this is particularly new ground. You'll find company and folks who are willing & eager to agree with you no matter which way you go.

    Hey, there was a time when I carried a .44 revolver off-duty loaded with 180gr Magnum loads which were rated to produce 1500-1600+ FPS (and I even carried longer barreled revolvers to maximize the realized velocity). I came close to carrying one as an optional/authorized duty weapon (like a number of other cops I knew), but the writing was on the wall about going along with the growing trend of adopting hi-cap 9's (late 80's), so I didn't waste my time.

    That was then, and this is now ...

    I don't get too wrapped up around the axle about caliber choice anymore, let alone specific loads. Pick something you like. Pick one in a nice color, or with a brand or product line name that tickles your fancy. This is one of those 'informed judgment & decision-making" things. Not a popularity contest (although sometimes it's hard to tell the difference when browsing the internet firearms forums. ;) )

    When it comes right down to it, how well can you put rounds on the intended target in demanding circumstances, using whichever caliber or load you like, in your pistol? There's the real question.

    Not just while standing upright, well-balanced and comfortable at some nice range, taking as much time as you desire(or are required to take) between shots, etc ... but under demanding conditions? Consider finding a training class with experienced trainers able to conduct their training in a safe manner, and see how well you do against your preconceptions, as well as against other students of varying experience, motivation, training, etc.

    FWIW, I've had occasion to watch a few folks qualifying with 10mm guns (1911's & Glocks). They pretty much were slower (and no more accurate) than when they were shooting other guns/calibers during the qual sessions (when they shot more than one gun/caliber), or when compared against other folks shooting alongside them (using an assortment of other commonly used center fire handgun calibers). Might be something for any particular shooter to consider ...

    How about during a real-life dynamic situation which may be rapidly changing, chaotic and causing all the unpleasant effects associated with the fear-induced hormonal response? When startled, or otherwise distracted, injured, or only able (for whatever reason) to use 1 hand?

    If one or the other calibers/loads gives you an advantage in recoil management, controllability and consistent accuracy? Well, that's your decision to make ...

    I remember when I was a young cop (and before I became a firearms instructor) I used to feel somewhat reluctant to carry anything in my first S&W M36 3" if I read in some magazine that the velocity & muzzle energy was less than another load. How about less than 300 FPE?!?!? :shocked: Maybe only in the 200's of FPE!?! :faint:

    Fast forward toward the end of my career, and I can't remember the last time I even bothered to look for the FPE figures of some of the newer +P loads I typically carry in my J's. I can tell you some of the velocities that have been demonstrated in actual snubs during various hosted gel "test" events, and even the penetration & expansion (if any) results. Just not the FPE "calculations".

    FPE just isn't one of the things that's high on my list of critical factors used in the selection of my off-duty/retirement CCW ammunition.

    That's me, though.

    Luck in your choice.
     
  20. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME

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    Although I appreciate people's comments about practice, I attempted to set the parameters where the pistols were equal and would have equalivalent recoil with the specified loads, removing recoil control from the picture.

    The part in bold leads me to believe you would prefer the 45.

    When I was a police officer over 19 years ago, I carried a Glock 21 loaded with Remington 185 JHP +P (department issue) and shot it well (if I elaborated it would sound like bragging). I only did that job for a couple of years. If I had continued, I would have be able to retire in 5 months, able and affordable are two different things. The next career I selected has left me with 10 years & 6 months before retirement is a possibility.

    I sometimes use a shot timer and it led me to weed the Kahr and XD pistols from my selection; their shot times (with accuracy requirement) were not up to par with 1911's and Glocks in my hands. If I went solely on split times then I would carry a Glock 19, but I might be willing to concede a potential .15 of a second for a more powerful round.

    I have owned a Glock 36 three different times and eventually sold each one all three times; I think I have figured out that that pistol just doesn't do it for me. :embarassed:

    I have had two Glock 30's, one regular and one SF, again I sold both for one reason or another.

    So you see, this thread is a hypothetical choice, not actual. :quiet:

    In reality the choice would be whether I'm going to carry strong side IWB or appendix or Smartcarry.

    If I'm going with strong side IWB, I'll either have a Dan Wesson Valor or Ed Brown Special Forces; the Valor loaded with Ranger T, whereas the Special Forces would have a 185 XTP because the Brown shoots a little closer to my POA with a lighter bullet. POA & POI matching is more important to me than slight differences in potential effectiveness.

    Appendix or SmartCarry is either a Glock 27, EMP 40 or the 29SF; there is reallly no debate as to which of these would be more effective.

    Caliber Corner seems (seemed) like the place for a caliber debate.
    Generally I think bigger is better, 40 S&W better than 9mm and 45 better than 40 S&W based on incapacitation ability alone.

    I have all three of the "Stopping Power" books, but this doesn't imply that I agree with all of it (I do not think the 32 Silvertip would be as effective as 45 ball).

    To answer the which .357 load I would take, the 125 JHP over the 158 if those were my choices for protection against human attack. However the .357 Mag (which is really a .355 bullet) would not be my preference over a full power 10mm. I would not take the revolver over a semiauto; and their energy levels are nearly the same, but the 40 has a bigger bullet.

    Now back to my attempted caliber debate. I might carry the Glock 29 SF or the full size 1911 (KE levels with the 5'' 1911 are in the 430# range) if I want to utilize appendix IWB instead of strong side IWB, this largely depende on clothing and if I'm going to have to take the pistol off, much easier to take the clip-on kydex holster off that I use for appendix carry.

    Now since this is not a debate about which method of carry I'm going to use, I'll again attempt to redirect to the topic at hand.

    I know they are both going to be effective, about as good as one could get from a pistol that can be carried concealed; but, which would have the edge in incapacitation 45 acp with a premium 230 JHP or the full power 10mm with a 155 gr. ?

    I'll assume fastbolt gives the edge to the 45. :wavey:
     
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